advice needed

[florestan9]

I enjoy playing the piano as a hobby and have done so for the past 15 years, having had lessons for the first 10 years or so and then studying on my own once I got to college.  Since then I have mostly studied pieces that I happen to like as opposed to ones that would be useful for developing technique.  For the most part this has worked out to some extent, in that I can play the notes reasonably well (well enough for my own satisfaction, anyway), but some of the finer, interpretative aspects are lacking.  For example, in the past 6 months I have taught myself Schumann's Symphonic Etudes and Chopin's 4th Ballade, which by anyone's standards are tremendously difficult from both a technical and intrepretative point of view, but despite being able to (for the most part) hit the right notes, they still don't sound as good as I would like.  I have a friend who is much better at piano than I am that gives me occasional advice on specific pieces that I'm learning, which has helped tremendously, but he also seems to be of the opinion that pushing myself to learn such difficult works is beneficial and perhaps more productive than studying simpler pieces (I should probably point out that I really had a lot of fun learning these works, even though it felt like pulling teeth at times!).  My question is basically whether or not this is good advice; i.e. would it be worthwhile to instead try something easier and focus more on achieving better control of tone, rhythm, dynamics, etc than to work on something technically demanding.  At the moment I am still not taking lessons per se (other than the advice I receive from my friend), and although I hope to start up again soon, I would appreciate any advice you could offer in the meantime, including suggestions as to works that might be worthwhile to study.

If you're interested in hearing the Ballade, click here:
[link removed]

Thanks,
florestan9

[pianowelsh]

I think what i would recommend is something like this. 1.  Do study difficult repertoire!!!! BUT for now restrict it to variation styled works than you can do in bites sized chunks. ie Beethoven 32 Variations, Mendelssohn variations serieuses, Mussorgsky pictures at an exhibition etc that way you can polish each variation as you go and have something which you have finished even if some of the variations may take a very long time to come.  2. I would combine this with studying groups of pieces ie Greig Lyric pieces, Schubert impromptus/moments musicaux, Chopin Preludes, Debussy Preludes or even a couple of Bach Preudes and fugues.  That way so much can be learnt in detail and you will grow you repertoire and musical breadth much more quickly  and also your programmes will have more variety and balance internally - there are so many beautiful miniatures in these and similar ablums and im sure you can have much fun bringing these up to a really good level whislst slowly chipping away at the big cornerstone rep.  I see why you went for Ballade 4 though it is such a gorgeous piece - my thought would be to learn some Chopin preludes/etudes/mazurkas/waltzes as a group of 4 or 6 and work towwards playing an all Chopin first half and maybe a big work like the Schumann in second half.

[bernhard]

Make a distinction between difficult – which you should avoid -  and challenging – which you should actively pursue.

Have a look at these related threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3442.msg30359.html#msg30359
(How to choose your next piece – impossible/easy pieces)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[teresa_b]

Hi flor,

I have done basically the same thing, except my last college days were in the 70's! 

Anyway, I love Ballades, and cannot play the 4th one--(I have struggled with the G-minor, and the coda tends to beat me. But I still work on it.)  I listened to your rendition, and it's very good!!

You have said you want it to sound more expressive; here's what I would do:

Listen, listen listen--to your own recording and to recordings by pianists you like.  (I like Zimmermann and Garrick Olsen)  Hear what they are doing with the music that is missing in yours.

It may be that the piece is so difficult even to get the notes right, you can't focus on the interpretive challenge enough.  Try a slightly easier repertoire first--(check out pianowelsh and Bernhard's thoughts).

The lyrical areas can be very difficult to pull off, as the bombastic parts are more straightforward interpretively.  Separate out those sensuous, sublime passages--as you play, don't "think" so much about dynamics (you know those anyway)--Try to "see" or feel your own emotional state--tender?  sad? resigned?  peaceful?-- Not to apply words, but you want to project those emotions outward to the keyboard, then to your audience.  (And I can't do this until I know the notes, or I play sloppily.  Emotion at the price of lousy accuracy stinks.  ) 

LAst but not least, you might consider getting a regular teacher--someone who can listen critically on a regular basis could help you tremendously.  I play periodically for my teacher.  Sometimes I am dissatisfied with my playing, and she can turn it around with one suggestion.  E.g., "Don't forget this piece is 'Impromptu'--you are being too deliberate" or "I am not hearing the 'dancing' quality." 

You get the idea. 
Good Luck--You have a wonderful ability.
Have fun!
Teresa

 

[cjp_piano]

despite being able to (for the most part) hit the right notes, they still don't sound as good as I would like. 

Why DOESN'T it sound the way you want it to?  Is it because you are concentrating on the notes and fingerings?  Just trying to get through the piece?  Even though demanding pieces/passages require lots of energy, it should be fairly comfortable to play, meaning that you are relaxed and your hands are kind of on "automatic pilot." 
 
I don't mean you are detached from the piece and just going through the motions, although, that kind of IS how it should be.  Not that you aren't in control, but as your hands are going through the motions, LISTEN to the sounds that you are making, and don't judge the sounds that have already happened, just experience the music.  This is assuming that you've already analyzed the piece in terms of form and harmonic structure, allowing you to see where it should push and pull and where climaxes are, etc.
 
Obviously, this is easier to do with pieces that you can manage easily, so I DO think you should try some pieces that are a little less difficult.  Once you can play them naturally, comfortably, and relaxed, then you shouldn't have a problem controlling the sound. 

Be sure to "disect" the piece.  Just focus on one passage, phrase, or maybe even a few notes at a time, experimenting with how many ways you can make it sound.  Go to extremes: if you want a slight crescendo, make it pp to ff.  If you want a staccato, see how many different ways you can play it short:  sharp, light, just detached, . . . .

Not that you will play a slight cresc as pp to ff, but just see what you have to choose from.  Realizing the spectrum of sounds that you can create should help open it up for you  =) 

I think it was Chopin that told his students make 20 different sounds with a single note!

I agree with Bernhard:  if it's too difficult, then you should avoid it because you will definitely not be able to have it sound like you want it to.

I also agree with teresa_b: "see" or feel your own emotional state.  Pretend you are composing the piece, and as you play a passage, decide exactly when and how to play each note.  What do you want to "say" with the music?  If a passage should sound sad, then you can't just play it sad, you should actually BE sad, don't you think?  So think of something that makes you sad as you play it.  I find this extremely helpful for me.  I get carried away in the music and forget that I'm actually making the music.

Am I crazy? lol


Good Luck