Do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?

[jre58591]

I did a huge analysis of his music, and studied it in huge depth for part of my degree. It's awful. Why call me a close minded idiot for not liking his music??? It's personal, I dislike it in so many ways. I think that your close minded for not accepting my opinion.

if it was so awful, then all of those scholars that also studied it in depth would be wrong, and i dont think thats possible. also, he would not be respected as much as he is today. what say you about that? sure, it may not appeal to you, but that is no grounds to call his music "awful". i might have been a bit rude in calling you an idiot, sure. however, you cannot call me close minded. if you ask some of the other members here, they will all agree that im anything but close minded. wow, youre on fire today with opinion making! first xenakis, then me! dont dig your hole any deeper and just stop here.

[nocturnelover]

Well I'm probably underqualified to make judgement but personally I only started getting lessons half way through last year and I have a keyboard with touch response and it has in built recording. Chopin's Etude op.10 no.3 (simplified and shortened) was on there and I started to learn it with the keyboard's teaching system which shows you the notes and fingerings. And I tell you what my first thought was how the hell is anyone able to reach for those chords!?!?! And additionally it hurt like hell BUT after a while and ALLLOT of practice I can play this simplified short version of it quite confidently. I also think that it has helped by hands greatly with strength, agility and finger span.
I'm not very familiar with the meanings of the classifications for pieces and so I must ask was the Etude composed particularly for the aquiring of technique?
Also what exactly does the Winter Wind Etude contribute to technical ability, just because it seems so technically difficult and advanced?

[bflatminor24]

i dont think they cover everything. they leave a lot of left hand work out. and they don't cover monstrous technical difficulties either.

[ramseytheii]

Yes, how is Chopin op10no1 hard if you no how to use the arm properly? Op10no2 easy if you can find the positions, etc... any piece is like that. Rach3 is even easy if you find the correct movement and positions. This of course only works if the person has a good technique. If somethings hard, and you no why it's hard, it suddenly becomes a lot easier becasue you can solve the problem. What is a mechanical difficulty? I've never viewed the piano as mechanical. If you loosen up and totally relax everything, everything suddenly becomes free, and difficulties just dissapear.

I think this is a misguided idea.  You're saying, "If you know how to play piano, Rachmaninoff 3rd won't be any work at all."  If you know how to play piano, you can begin working on the hardest parts of the repertoire.  Same with op.10 no.1, just because you have a comfortable usage of your arm doesn't mean that every passage is going to be automatically just as easy as every other one.  Anyways, you are talking purely about mechanical application, and there are other dififculties involved as well, especially in a piece as long and complicated as Rachmaninoff 3rd concerto.

Leslie Howard, who can play practically any piece of Liszt on demand without warming up or looking at the score, told me that a small passage in the Rachmaninoff Corelli variations, the cascading 4ths in the intermezzo, is impossible for him unless he practices it over and over again right before the concert.  So there!

Walter Ramsey

[bflatminor24]

The difficulties of the piano are pretty much unlimited. It's wrong to say you can master all of them because you are familiar with the keys. Also, the Chopin Etudes deal with basic difficulties in the right hand which provide a framework for most piano technique. But for those gifted enough to play technical monsters like avant-garde piano music these etudes will not suffice.

For one, none of them test endurance.

[phil13]

For one, none of them test endurance.

I would think that Op.25 No.10 would be fairly draining, as octaves in general can tax the wrist. Not having played it, I can't say for sure.

I will agree that none of the Chopets test endurance in the sense of a long time using a technical figuration without pause. (Alkan Concerto for Solo Piano, anybody?)

Phil

[mattgreenecomposer]

wow I can't believe all the responses to this in so short a time.  I don't think they cover anything but Chopin.  yes it will help develop tchnique but for the most part , you have to be highly skilled to play these pieces and some of he hand stretches are too large for kid's.  Music is like food ..you need a healthy variety of everything. Bach, Mozart, Brahms, etc to really get good technique and don't forget interpretation. 
mattgreenecomposer.com

[opus10no2]

i dont think they cover everything. they leave a lot of left hand work out. and they don't cover monstrous technical difficulties either.

The Wuhrer inversions cover the left hand...and Chopin was right in most of his etudes for concentrating on one hand having the most demanding figuration, for reasons which i stated previously in this topic.

Name some 'monstrous technical difficulties' they don't cover, so I can understand what you mean with more clarity...

Leslie Howard, who can play practically any piece of Liszt on demand without warming up or looking at the score, told me that a small passage in the Rachmaninoff Corelli variations, the cascading 4ths in the intermezzo, is impossible for him unless he practices it over and over again right before the concert. So there!

Howard hardly has one of the greatest mechanisms, his greatest asset is his memory , sight-reading, and general brain skills.

This merely proves that he requires exacting preparation to perform more demanding figurations.

I will agree that none of the Chopets test endurance in the sense of a long time using a technical figuration without pause. (Alkan Concerto for Solo Piano, anybody?)

Phil

Wrong.

Most of the Chopin etudes are greater tests of endurance.

The Alkan concerto, for the most part, is like a series of brief etudes seperated by sections of 'moist'.

These 'etude' sections do vary however, and some are Chopin etude 'level', but I'd say none of them exceed the most difficult Chopin etudes.

The difficulties of the piano are pretty much unlimited. It's wrong to say you can master all of them because you are familiar with the keys. Also, the Chopin Etudes deal with basic difficulties in the right hand which provide a framework for most piano technique. But for those gifted enough to play technical monsters like avant-garde piano music these etudes will not suffice.

For one, none of them test endurance.

Laughable, and yet...I am not laughing.

Those who are truly GIFTED wouldn't hide behind the brain-work and unorthodox note sequences of modern music.

Please note that Rudenko's Chopin etude op10no2 is a FAR GREATER feat of physical endurance than either Madge's or Ogdon's OC recordings.


To test endurance, the difficulty must be perpetual and involving the same sector(s) of mechanique.

Please post a section from any Xenakis, Sorabji, or Finnissy work that demands as extensively on the 'weak' fingers of the RH as the Chopin etude I mention.


Please don't tell me you're one of those women who are so caught up in the romantic moment that you neglect to spot the fact that your partner possesses a 'diminished minor'.

I'm sitting here chilling with my augmented major on full view with my Chopin etudes. 

[hodi]

i don't think they cover all, but they do cover a lot of essential piano technique
they are useless for playing schumann for example., it's totally different pianism.

[nicco]

i don't think they cover all, but they do cover a lot of essential piano technique
they are useless for playing schumann for example., it's totally different pianism.

How..exactly? please explain.

[bflatminor24]

kay.

you don't explain your point, you just make dumb comments, buddy.

none of the etudes test endurance. they're all under 5 minutes long. and because they are refining technical pianism, and they are not bombastic extremities, they are not taxing on endurance. they weren't meant to wipe out the performer. they were meant to focus on difficulties of dexterity, control, dynamics, and other techniques for the right hand (mostly). you should know this by now. they weren't meant to cover everything.

That said, they're still the best set of etudes for developing piano technique, because realistically, it's unnecessary for a pianist to have to play exorbitantly long pieces of bombastic technique. although pieces like this do exist, the chopin etudes do not train you for it.

For example, and i am not suggesting it is bombastic, but a large scale work demanding much greater focus and endurance than any chopin etude, consider the Night Wind sonata by Medtner. One of my favorite sonatas - it requires a different kind of technique than in the chopin etudes.

[opus10no2]

No, I am speaking of physical endurance, figurations which if performed at true tempo push the limits of each finger's endurance.

'Bombast' is associated with wrist/arm mech, and actually, the Chopin 25/10 is as difficult as any piece(o the same era) in this regard.

The Medtner obviusly demands more sustained mental and musical concentration, but the physical demands are acually lesser.

[lostinidlewonder]

Opus10no2 you should really stop saying things like NO to people comments or WRONG because even though you think you really know what you are talking about you are very far off target if you think there is a simple right and wrong answer to music. You simply waste your life and time trying to explain why you think someone is wrong or right. I could try to support what i say or what others say with 100 pages of writing but for what purpose? To prove something? It doesn't help you have to sit in front of the piano and find out for yourself, all this talk is just talk!

[opus10no2]

I seek to educate, and to PWN, it's fun  .

Here, I'm not talking about anything that can't be proven right or wrong, I am often dealing with mislead beliefs and shaky definitions.

[jre58591]

aww how cute. comme's trying to be smart again.

[opus10no2]

lawl, jre of arabia trying to be funny 

[bflatminor24]

alright comme, enough personal attacks. it doesn't reflect well upon you or this forum.

lostinidlewonder - good point. there isn't a right or wrong answer, and it's all a bunch of talk. i think it's fun to discuss things but absolutes leave no room for discussion.

hence, support your opinion, but do not make absolutes. they are dead ends.

i think the medtner sonata is more difficult because the phrases are longer, the rhythms are more difficult, the voicing is harder, and it requires much more endurance of the performer.

[opus10no2]

I was talking about PHYSICAL endurance.

Longer phrases, more complex rhythms, harder voicing..

These difficulties have no bearing on physical endurance, only mental concentration, plus they are all musical difficulties, and are impossible to competitively compare.

I recognize the importance of 'musical' elements of technique, but they are impossible to objectively quantify among pianists.
The only element of a pianist's qualities that IS objectively comparable, is the mechanique - basically, the speed of all the fingers, etc.

[cygnusdei]

With the advent of disklavier or even traditional waveform analysis it is possible to extend objective assessment beyond speed and note accuracy. What comes to mind is such qualities as 'smoothness of phrasing' or 'tone control'. Especially in music that allows tempo discretions, the attack of each note with respect to time should still agree with a smooth curve (on phrase-by-phrase basis); think of plotting the pitch on y-axis and time of attack on x-axis. Not only that, you can create a similar plot for dynamic values, too: think of smooth cresc. and decresc. I'm sure other objective assessments can be established as well. Mind you these methods are not the way to appreciate music; the naked ear already can perceive these musical qualities albeit not in an objectively quantifiable manner.

[opus10no2]

Correct, but these are byproducts of speed.

When a pianist endowed with speedy mech plays a piece under his maximum possible tempo, the further down he goes, the more even and controlled the figurations will sound.

So, for example, in 2 pianists who play op10no2 in 1 minute 10 seconds, with perfect accuracy, it is possible to determine who has the best technique by ear - by these qualities you mentioned - because they indicate speed in reserve.

But the advent of this new technology does make this much more easy to determine and prove scientifically.

[pianowelsh]

Everything is hard until you make it easy! Chopins etudes are very fine However His style of writing is very different to the etudes and indeed much of the pre romantic repertoire.  I would suggest that they wont help particularly in this area - all though ANY applied technical study will yield some benefit to your playing. As far as Chords tremolos etc there is nothing in Chopin you need Liszt and Rachmaninov etc. for difficult textures you need debussy and Ligeti etc.. No they dont cover everything.  Are they perhaps the best set of transcendental etudes...yes!

[franzliszt2]

My God op10no2 you talk some rubbish. Technique is not about finger speed, alone. What if someone can play chopin op10no1 in 1 min 30, but has a better sound? You can tell that you can';t play all the Chopin etudes, becasue op10no1 2 and 4 (the ones that seem to impress you most by speed) are in fact easy if you've played a lot of the Etudes. You talking about top concert pianists, who have great facilty, I've no doubt they can play them even faster if they wanted to.

Physical endurance is nothing. That does not come into question, if you get tired, you have bad technique....simple. If I play anything and get tired, I stop, and look at why. Even if I've been pl;aying for 10 hours.

Why did you say op10no2 is a test of endurance? It's so easy if you find the positions that work best, then you can use the arm to help the fingers.

[dnephi]

My God op10no2 you talk some rubbish. Technique is not about finger speed, alone. What if someone can play chopin op10no1 in 1 min 30, but has a better sound? You can tell that you can';t play all the Chopin etudes, becasue op10no1 2 and 4 (the ones that seem to impress you most by speed) are in fact easy if you've played a lot of the Etudes. You talking about top concert pianists, who have great facilty, I've no doubt they can play them even faster if they wanted to.

Physical endurance is nothing. That does not come into question, if you get tired, you have bad technique....simple. If I play anything and get tired, I stop, and look at why. Even if I've been pl;aying for 10 hours.

Why did you say op10no2 is a test of endurance? It's so easy if you find the positions that work best, then you can use the arm to help the fingers.

Some people's hands are not that size.

Dan

[franzliszt2]

What size?

[opus10no2]

My God op10no2 you talk some rubbish. Technique is not about finger speed, alone. What if someone can play chopin op10no1 in 1 min 30, but has a better sound? You can tell that you can';t play all the Chopin etudes, becasue op10no1 2 and 4 (the ones that seem to impress you most by speed) are in fact easy if you've played a lot of the Etudes. You talking about top concert pianists, who have great facilty, I've no doubt they can play them even faster if they wanted to.

Physical endurance is nothing. That does not come into question, if you get tired, you have bad technique....simple. If I play anything and get tired, I stop, and look at why. Even if I've been pl;aying for 10 hours.

Why did you say op10no2 is a test of endurance? It's so easy if you find the positions that work best, then you can use the arm to help the fingers.

Maximizing tech comes from minimizing fatigue....maximising mech comes from the contrary - by maximizing fatigue and pushing speeds.

For all the flatulence of your verbosity, you lack concision and what's more - wisdom.

[elevateme_returns]

No.

why why why do people on here still post "No." for an entire reply? its so completely pointless. if someone says, kissin is great! you don't say . ..  no. you could at least argue an opinion.

[opus10no2]

When God made the earth he said it was good.

When he made you, he just said no.

[elevateme_returns]

Maximizing tech comes from minimizing fatigue....maximising mech comes from the contrary - by maximizing fatigue and pushing speeds.

For all the flatulence of your verbosity, you lack concision and what's more - wisdom.

well, what franzliszt2 said seems pretty concise to me. are you having trouble understanding it?

[elevateme_returns]

When God made the earth he said it was good.

When he made you, he just said no.

do you believe in god? im completely against all types of religion.

[elevateme_returns]

Some people's hands are not that size.

Dan

does he mention hand size at all in his post? i am quite confused by what you said

[opus10no2]

well, what franzliszt2 said seems pretty concise to me. are you having trouble understanding it?

I don't know how, but somehow fools are better suited to understanding fools.

do you believe in god? im completely against all types of religion.

Not usually, just when I look in the mirror.

Something that beautiful just had to be made by a divine being.

[franzliszt2]

I just don't understand how you can talk about the piano like you do. It shows total unmusicallity. You have to be the most unmusical person I've ever heard.

[opus10no2]

I just don't understand how you can talk about the piano like you do. It shows total unmusicallity. You have to be the most unmusical person I've ever heard.

Hey thanks!

Finally someone understands me, and that's a compliment I might use as a press quote if you'll allow me? 

[franzliszt2]

It's actually depressing to know that somewhere in a concert hall there are people like you. Have you read the book called "Hamelin and the eight"? Read that. I've just finished it, and if Hamelin heard you talking about him like you do, I'm sure he'd be quite annoyed since he actually wanst people to enjoy the music, and works so hard to do so, and then you come along and shoot him, and proove every music critic right, Alkan is speed, Sorabji woah!! speed!!! Godowsky..woah Hamelin has great mechanics!!! What about the music?

[opus10no2]

Sorabji actually has minimal speed.

Hamelin would be flattered by what I say about him, surely.

[franzliszt2]

Read the book. It talks about virtuosity. And it seriously kills your argument, read it please. You can have this argument with Hamelin. I'm sure he'd win

[opus10no2]

I own the book, and actually when I met Hamelin, he thanked me for coming to his concert.

[franzliszt2]

Did you go WOAHHHH!!! octaves!!!!!!! Fast!!!!!! Speeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!! 

[elevateme_returns]

I don't know how, but somehow fools are better suited to understanding fools.

Not usually, just when I look in the mirror.

Something that beautiful just had to be made by a divine being.

why bother saying stuff like that? everyone thinks youre a twat anyway

[jre58591]

comme, go to sleep. its past your bedtime.

[opus10no2]

its part your bedtime.

Ian Pace level accuracy.

Feel proud.

[soliloquy]

if it was so awful, then all of those scholars that also studied it in depth would be wrong, and i dont think thats possible. also, he would not be respected as much as he is today. what say you about that? sure, it may not appeal to you, but that is no grounds to call his music "awful". i might have been a bit rude in calling you an idiot, sure. however, you cannot call me close minded. if you ask some of the other members here, they will all agree that im anything but close minded. wow, youre on fire today with opinion making! first xenakis, then me! dont dig your hole any deeper and just stop here.

JRE don't listen to him.  He just tried to tell me he was a source on the works of Xenakis on another thread and probably said about 25 things that are just blatantly false, like the fact that apparently, Messiaen was NOT actually his teacher.


Also, interestingly, in that thread he was defending Lang Lang and Evgeny Kissin, and... what's this here?

I just don't understand how you can talk about the piano like you do. It shows total unmusicallity. You have to be the most unmusical person I've ever heard.

Just letting you know you're arguing with a 4 year old

[franzliszt2]

How am I a 4 year old to say it's unmusical to talk about piano like he does?

[soliloquy]

How am I a 4 year old to say it's unmusical to talk about piano like he does?

Let me break it down.


The question was, "do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?"  We're talking about technical aspects of pianism.  Not musical interpretation.  Therefore, you misunderstood a *counts them* SEVEN word question, and then proceeded to argue with several people about things you have no idea what you're talking about and just made yourself look even dumber.

[franzliszt2]

Have you played any Chopin etudes? They are all music! Anyone who says they are not music is silly. They are etudes of course, but I prefer to se them as music

[elevateme_returns]

Let me break it down.


The question was, "do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?"  We're talking about technical aspects of pianism.  Not musical interpretation.  Therefore, you misunderstood a *counts them* SEVEN word question, and then proceeded to argue with several people about things you have no idea what you're talking about and just made yourself look even dumber.

24 isnt a word. you cant even count the number of words in a question and you're calling him dumb??  plus, franzliszt2 plays all the chopin etudes. he did them at the start of the year with his teacher at RCM. i know this for a fact

[soliloquy]

24 isnt a word. would you like that broken down? plus, franzliszt2 plays all the chopin etudes. he did them at the start of the year with his teacher at RCM. i know this for a fact

Ok.  Then he misunderstood a six word sentence.  Even worse.  Way to stick up for a friend   Now let's not be pedantic, shall we?  I would be interested in hearing franzliszt2's Chopin   Franzy, where can we all hear them? 

Have you played any Chopin etudes? They are all music! Anyone who says they are not music is silly. They are etudes of course, but I prefer to se them as music

Only twenty-seven of them.  Hey Elevateme, is that one word or two?  Once again, you fail to understand the point anyone else is making.  We're not discussing whether or not the Chopin Etudes should be played as technical showpieces or as artistic works; we're discussing whether or not, as a set, they address all of the necessary techniques of piano playing.

[franzliszt2]

I dunno when you can hear them., it's a bit of a dumb question.

[nicco]

The question was, "do the 24 Chopin Etudes cover everything?"  We're talking about technical aspects of pianism.

Are we? The topic title asks if the chopets cover "everything". Technique is not everything, and the chopets are just as much pieces pf music as they are etudes meant to develop technique. The two elements are connected to eachother, so you cant have awesome technique without ability to produce music.

[elevateme_returns]

Ok. Then he misunderstood a six word sentence. Even worse. Way to stick up for a friend Now let's not be pedantic, shall we? I would be interested in hearing franzliszt2's Chopin Franzy, where can we all hear them?


Only twenty-seven of them. Hey Elevateme, is that one word or two? Once again, you fail to understand the point anyone else is making. We're not discussing whether or not the Chopin Etudes should be played as technical showpieces or as artistic works; we're discussing whether or not, as a set, they address all of the necessary techniques of piano playing.

I thought we already established that they didnt   they obviously dont. theres your answer.  also twenty-seven is one word.