Bernhard, Opinion needed! (Please?)

[teresa_b]

Bernhard, I respect your opinion greatly, and I wonder what you think of this: 

I am playing a solo next year with the Chamber Orchestra of Florida.  (Spring 2007)  They have a limited number of musicians, and due to budget difficulties, I have certain choice restrictions.  I also am a professional (not a musician!  ) by day and have limited practice time.  Here are my thoughts--

Mozart PC no 17, K453.  I played this about 5 years ago  (LOVE it).  Would be easier to re-learn than a new piece.  Will have to convince the director to hire extra winds. 

Mozart PC no 9, K271.  Have not played and will have to learn from scratch.  (Kind of difficult!)  Advantage--Fewer extra musicians in the ensemble.

Beethoven PC no 4, chamber version.  ( )  I played this (the original version) years ago, and need to re-learn.  Hard, but not impossible.  It was arranged by a contemp. of LVB for string quintet and LVB himself may have done embellished piano part.  BIG problem--Can't get scores!  They are apparently held in Germany and Austria.  So as interesting as it is, this may not work. 

Off the wall choice--Shostakovich PC no 1.  Has only extra trumpet  along with string orch.  But I am not used to 20th century.  Maybe too challenging?

What do you think?
Thanks!
Teresa

[lufia]

I belive Bernado has died and it is up to me to take over. Jokes

I hear Bernard is taking his exams and trying to get his credentials. His walking the talk

[teresa_b]

Thanks--I have seen a couple of posts recently by Bernhard, so hope he might be back! 

Teresa

[alzado]

If anyone were to wish to "smoke Barnhard out," as the expression goes, post here and ask him to rank fifteen or twenty compositions in order of difficulty.

He seems to find that sort of task irresistable. 

Just a suggestion.

[I Love Xenakis]

ok rank:

Alkan Symphonie pour Piano Suel Op. 39
Barber Sonata Op. 26
Bartok Sonata Sz. 80
Beethoven Sonatas Nos. 30 and 32 PUT TOGETHER
Corigliano Etude Fantasy
De Falla Fantasia Baetica
Debussy Images Books I and II
Liszt Sonata in B Minor
Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition
Nancarrow Tango?
Rachmaninov Sonata No. 2 Op. 36 (1931)
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
Schubert Sonata D. 960
Schumann Fantasy Pieces Op. 12
Scriabin Sonatas Nos. 6 and 10 PUT TOGETHER
Sorabji Quasi Habanera Op. 8
Stravinsky Trois Mouvements from "Petrouchka"
Vine Sonata No. 1
Xenakis Mists



*** i'm bored..

[pianistimo]

i'm bored, too, so i'm going to help bernhard out by making one post before his to root out a few misnomers (wild guesses).

ok.  here it goes (just writing composers since the pieces were previously given):

schubert
schuman
beethoven
bartok
corigliano
rach
debussy
ravel
scriabin
stravinsky
vine
mussorgsky
de falla
alkan
nancarrow
xenakis

just a guess.  what if xenakis is first and it's one of his easiest pieces.  then i'll be really ignorant.
*just rate how many i got right (in numerical order) to the total. 

[I Love Xenakis]

so whatcha gonna do for valentine's day pianonut?

[pianistimo]

i called my husband and told him i loved him.  then i was going to delete siberian husky's telephone number (which he gave me today) but instead i thumped on the bible twice and decided to leave it just in case i need to make my husband jealous sometime.  i never called (honestly).  why do some people tempt others so much?   

what are you going to do?

[I Love Xenakis]

I have mono, therefor i'm going to lick chocolates and give them to people I don't like.

[pianistimo]

i wish my leg wasn't broken.  i'd be out skiing.

say, you must have been doing some serious kissing to get mono.  this is exactly the kind of response people wish they could make.  are you serious? 

oh yes.  and what about my list?  am i way off?

[bernhard]

Bernhard, I respect your opinion greatly, and I wonder what you think of this: 

I am playing a solo next year with the Chamber Orchestra of Florida.  (Spring 2007)  They have a limited number of musicians, and due to budget difficulties, I have certain choice restrictions.  I also am a professional (not a musician!  ) by day and have limited practice time.  Here are my thoughts--

Mozart PC no 17, K453.  I played this about 5 years ago  (LOVE it).  Would be easier to re-learn than a new piece.  Will have to convince the director to hire extra winds. 

Mozart PC no 9, K271.  Have not played and will have to learn from scratch.  (Kind of difficult!)  Advantage--Fewer extra musicians in the ensemble.

Beethoven PC no 4, chamber version.  ( )  I played this (the original version) years ago, and need to re-learn.  Hard, but not impossible.  It was arranged by a contemp. of LVB for string quintet and LVB himself may have done embellished piano part.  BIG problem--Can't get scores!  They are apparently held in Germany and Austria.  So as interesting as it is, this may not work. 

Off the wall choice--Shostakovich PC no 1.  Has only extra trumpet  along with string orch.  But I am not used to 20th century.  Maybe too challenging?

What do you think?
Thanks!
Teresa

Teresa:

I am sorry, but I am not really very conversant with the non-solo piano repertory. It seems to me that your program is very nice. The shostakovitch is usually considered of moderate difficulty (whatever this may mean).

However, if you wish to have a few other alternatives, it seems to me that the Baroque/classical repertory will be more appropriate for small orchestras, since in those days not every prince had a sizeable orchestra, and they are better adapted to limiting conditions.

Here are a few suggestions, but I am not really the best person to ask.

C. P. E. Bach – Concerto in D minor. This is the bridge between Papa Bach´s concerts and Mozart´s. Gustav Leonhardt has recorded it for Sony. Have a look here for details of the sheet music, plus  a CD without the piano part:

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/pages.html?cart=334893044821202437&target=smp_detail.html%26sku%3DMO.MMOCD3091&s=pages-no-referrer&e=/sheetmusic/detail/MO.MMOCD3091.html&t=&k=&r=wwws-err5

“Composed in 1748, this gorgeous and increasingly popular piece demonstrates the brilliance of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach. It transcends its late baroque/early classical timeframe and is pervaded by a pensive quality and even a predisposition toward a romantic sensibility. Highly recommended and not of excessive difficulty (includes music with difficulty levels 3-7). This deluxe 2CD set includes a slow-tempo practice version to help you get up to speed. Conductor: Nayden Todorov. Soloist: Romeo Smilkov, piano. Ensemble: Plovdiv Chamber Orchestra.” (from the site above).

Johann Nepomuk Hummel – Concerto in A minor op. 85 – In his heyday, Hummel was much admired by Chopin, Mendelssohn and the gang. Now he is almost forgotten. Most of the difficulty is Czerny like. And it is long (30 minutes). More information here:

https://www.pianopedia.com/w_1352_hummel.aspx

Chandos (Stephen Hough) has recorded several of the concertos, including this one. You can read a review and listen to samples here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000000AFD/102-3116072-0806556?v=glance&n=5174





And since you mentioned Shostakovitch, here is some modern stuff you may wish to investigate:

John Alden Carpenter (1876 – 1951) – Concertino for piano and orchestra. This is a single movement piece, with a relatively easy piano part. New Worlds Records has recorded all of his piano works. Read more about it here:

www.composersrecordings.com/linernotes/80328.pdf

You can get the score here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dbooks-uk%26field-author%3DCarpenter%2C%20John%20Alden/202-2783287-1293403


Here are two interesting curiosities:

Cecile Chaminade – Concertstuck for piano and orchestra Op. 40. This is not a concert, but rather a short piece for piano and orchestra. The piano part is fairly easy. It does require timpani and percussion. Have a look here for the sheet music:

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/pages.html?cart=334893155121255190&target=smp_detail.html%26sku%3DKM.A8331-SP&s=pages-no-referrer&e=/sheetmusic/detail/KM.A8331-SP.html&t=&k=&r=wwws-err5

and

Ernst von Dohnanyi – Variations on a nursery song op. 25 – eleven variations for piano and orchestra on the theme of “Twinkle twinkle little star”. Move over, Mozart!

Gabriel Fauré – Ballade for Piano and orchestra op. 19 in F# major. This is an arrangement (by Faure himself) of the original piano solo version.

You can get the sheet music here:
https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/pages.html?cart=334893474921410324&target=smp_detail.html%26sku%3DHL.49009589&s=pages-no-referrer&e=/sheetmusic/detail/HL.49009589.html&t=&k=&r=wwws-err5

 and a CD here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000014HU/102-3116072-0806556?v=glance&n=5174

Howard Ferguson – Concerto in D major for piano and strings – Ferguson is mostly known for his books on piano interpretation. The piano part is not too difficult, and it is for string orchestra.

Naxos has recorded it here, and you can read a review (excerpt below) here:

https://www.fanfaremag.com/archive/articles/28_6/286205.zz61-Donohoe.html

“It comes as no surprise, therefore, that all of the music on this CD is accessible, that much of it is actually quite romantic sounding, and that some of it is really quite beautiful. Howard Ferguson’s 1951 Concerto for Piano and String Orchestra, easily meets all three of these criteria. Ferguson (1908–1999) was not a prolific composer, but his Piano Concerto is a major composition that makes his contribution the standout on this CD. The slow movement, in particular, is rapturously beautiful, with an overlay of near-Eastern exoticism that occasionally reminded me of Bloch’s Schelomo.”

Jean Françaix – Concertino for piano and orchestra – Although in four movements, this is a very short piece and not difficult.

Hyperion has recorded it, and you can read a review here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000ARNF0/102-3116072-0806556?v=glance&n=5174

Excerpt:

“The Concertino for Piano and Orchestra is a better known work that is all too short. It was written by Jean Francaix for himself and he first performed it in 1934. The first movement is a perpetual movement with the piano playing brilliant run; the second movement takes on a reflective mood and reminds me of a lazy Sunday afternoon. The final movement has a dialogue between the piano and trumpet, then the flute that is flowed by the full orchestra playfully interplaying with the piano.”

Cesar Franck – Les djinns – Beautiful and little known symphonic poem based on Victor Hugo´s poem about a man afflicted by evil spirits.

Naxos has recorded it, and you can read a review here:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005UO8G/102-3116072-0806556?v=glance&n=5174

Cecil Armstrong Gibbs – Concertino for piano and string orchestra, op. 103 – another short, 3 movement, charming composition of only moderate difficulty and requiring only a string orchestra.

Hyperion has recorded it. Have a look here:

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/details/67316.asp

(check out the other concertos in this CD as well: Gordon Jacob – Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, Robin Millford, etc.)


Eugene Gossens – Phantasy concerto op. 60 – This is a most unusual piece, in one movement but with four distinct sessions. It is very dissonant, and the whole thing hinges on a four note motive which is played at the start by a trumpet. It may fit in nicely with the Shostakovitch.

Frederick Jacobi – Concertino in C major – The piano part is reasonably easy and very tonal. Only three short movements.

There is a very long biography of Jacobi here:
https://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/Theatre/voaden/theprodigalson_article.htm

William Walton – Sinfonia concertante for orchestra with piano – The interesting thing here is that the piano is not treated as a solo instrument, but rather as part of the orchestra. Ideal for the shy pianist! Quite a lot of wind and brass is required in the orchestra though.

Lots of information here:

https://www.williamwalton.net/works/orchestral/sinfonia_concertante.html

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

ok rank:

Alkan Symphonie pour Piano Suel Op. 39
Barber Sonata Op. 26
Bartok Sonata Sz. 80
Beethoven Sonatas Nos. 30 and 32 PUT TOGETHER
Corigliano Etude Fantasy
De Falla Fantasia Baetica
Debussy Images Books I and II
Liszt Sonata in B Minor
Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition
Nancarrow Tango?
Rachmaninov Sonata No. 2 Op. 36 (1931)
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
Schubert Sonata D. 960
Schumann Fantasy Pieces Op. 12
Scriabin Sonatas Nos. 6 and 10 PUT TOGETHER
Sorabji Quasi Habanera Op. 8
Stravinsky Trois Mouvements from "Petrouchka"
Vine Sonata No. 1
Xenakis Mists





*** i'm bored..

They are all roughly ABRSM grade 2, except for the Liszt and Sorabji which are grade 1. No wonder you are bored. Try a repertory that is a bit more challenging.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I have mono, therefor i'm going to lick chocolates and give them to people I don't like.

Why so bitter? Couldn´t you afford a stereo? 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pianistimo]

where did he go anyways?  he's very xenophobic.  handing licked on candies to people he doesn't like.   

[teresa_b]

Dear Bernhard,

Many thanks for all your great suggestions!  For someone who is not so conversant in this literature, you have suggested more than anyone else I know. 

Do you know by chance what the instrumentation is in the Faure?  We have mainly a string orchestra to work with, and it's hard to get the director to budget in too many extras (unfortunately). 

I am going to check out that CD of the Gibbs, and the Ferguson sounds interesting, too! 

My main difficulty with Shostakovich is my relative unfamiliarity with executing (in my case, perhaps killing) 20th century passage work easily.  I am very used to the runs and harmonies etc. in 18th and 19th century pieces, and maybe the Impressionists, but have much less experience in "modern" stuff.  (So instead of grade 1, Shostakovich is at least grade 2 por moi.   )

I'm still looking at Beethoven's PC 4, which a German musicologist name Kuethen  reconstructed for  piano/string quintet in 1995.  He took a known existing score arranged by a Beethoven contemporary (Maybe for Prince Lobkowitz?) and an embellished bunch of Beethoven's own sketches for PC 4, put them together, and has postulated Beethoven intended this embellished piano version for this purpose.  Interesting.  (I discovered I can get the scores for $150 Euro. Yipes)

Anyway, THANKS a million!!

Teresa

[I Love Xenakis]

i wish my leg wasn't broken.  i'd be out skiing.

say, you must have been doing some serious kissing to get mono.  this is exactly the kind of response people wish they could make.  are you serious? 

oh yes.  and what about my list?  am i way off?

Yeah the guy was really cute ^^  And hung like a stallion!  omg...


Anyways, I would have gone with this, from easiest to hardest:


Sorabji Quasi Habanera Op. 8
Scriabin Sonatas Nos. 6 and 10 PUT TOGETHER
Schumann Fantasy Pieces Op. 12
Schubert Sonata D. 960
Nancarrow Tango?
Liszt Sonata in B Minor
Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition
Bartok Sonata Sz. 80
Beethoven Sonatas Nos. 30 and 32 PUT TOGETHER
Debussy Images Books I and II
De Falla Fantasia Baetica
Corigliano Etude Fantasy
Rachmaninov Sonata No. 2 Op. 36 (1931)
Vine Sonata No. 1
Alkan Symphonie pour Piano Suel Op. 39
Barber Sonata Op. 26
Stravinsky Trois Mouvements from "Petrouchka"
Xenakis Mists
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit

[stevie]

Yeah the guy was really cute ^^  And hung like a stallion!  omg...

overactive imagination....it was a dream, sly, i wouldnt go anywhere near you.

[pianistimo]

interesting you put the beethoven at the halfway point.  are you joking or serious.  i though scriabin was supposed to be way more difficult than beethoven - but perhaps you mean musicality and difficulty?  or should i say - maybe each list is different for each person.  i've worked only beethoven and no scriabin - so for me, scriabin would be difficult because i'd have to get a better idea of what he was all about.  i love his harmonies - and forms, too- so it's not really musicality (one better than the other) but just the ability to play it well if you are familiar with it.

and the nancarrow tango after the schubert and before the liszt?  you must be pretty good to think that way.  i would have nancarrow much farther down - but perhaps all these things i consider technically more difficult - aren't really.  maybe it's all in the mind.

[I Love Xenakis]

interesting you put the beethoven at the halfway point.  are you joking or serious.  i though scriabin was supposed to be way more difficult than beethoven - but perhaps you mean musicality and difficulty?  or should i say - maybe each list is different for each person.  i've worked only beethoven and no scriabin - so for me, scriabin would be difficult because i'd have to get a better idea of what he was all about.  i love his harmonies - and forms, too- so it's not really musicality (one better than the other) but just the ability to play it well if you are familiar with it.

and the nancarrow tango after the schubert and before the liszt?  you must be pretty good to think that way.  i would have nancarrow much farther down - but perhaps all these things i consider technically more difficult - aren't really.  maybe it's all in the mind.

Well, the beethoven would run like 40 minutes and the scriabin would only run like 20, and the nancarrow tango is only a minute and a half.  Also, those two scriabin sonatas are technically possibly the easiest ones.  They're just very difficult musically.

[sharon_f]

Mozart's K. 414 is scored for strings, two oboes and two horns, although Mozart wrote in a letter to his fathers that the winds were optional.  There is an arrangement for string quartet and piano.

It is a lovely concerto, one of Mozart's favorites (he wrote two sets of cadenzas) and is not very difficult and easy to learn quickly. Has a gorgeous slow movement.

[etudes]

Yeah the guy was really cute ^^  And hung like a stallion!  omg...


Anyways, I would have gone with this, from easiest to hardest:


Sorabji Quasi Habanera Op. 8
Scriabin Sonatas Nos. 6 and 10 PUT TOGETHER
Schumann Fantasy Pieces Op. 12
Schubert Sonata D. 960
Nancarrow Tango?
Liszt Sonata in B Minor
Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition
Bartok Sonata Sz. 80
Beethoven Sonatas Nos. 30 and 32 PUT TOGETHER
Debussy Images Books I and II
De Falla Fantasia Baetica
Corigliano Etude Fantasy
Rachmaninov Sonata No. 2 Op. 36 (1931)
Vine Sonata No. 1
Alkan Symphonie pour Piano Suel Op. 39
Barber Sonata Op. 26
Stravinsky Trois Mouvements from "Petrouchka"
Xenakis Mists
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit

De Falla Fantasia Baetica is easier than it sounds...
and for me barber and stravinsky are harder than Ravel.

[alzado]

I suppose Bernhard is gone by now.  Oh well.

I did have questions about ranking pieces in order of difficulty.

Take something like the Bach Two-Part Inventions.

Wouldn't this differ in terms of the person?

Here's what I mean.  I don't do ornaments well and I don't care for them.  Trills, mordants, etc.   Some of the inventions have trills that must be sustained for as much as a stave or more.   I CAN do them if I have to, but tend to avoid them.

Also, I have a large span of hand, so I have little difficulty with tenths, whereas pieces with a lot of reach might be avoided by someone with smaller hands.

Also, I dislike key signatures with lots of black keys, such as six sharps or six flats, or even five.   I presume there are other pianists out there who just think these are the greatest.  My teacher once told me that five flats was her favorite signature.

Now, let's end with the examples.  When you rank a book of selections, such as the inventions, wouldn't you need to qualify that?  That difficulty -- or the perception thereof -- differs for different people?

[teresa_b]

Hi Alzado,

Well, I started this thread not to rank pieces by difficulty, of course--I had an entirely different question for Bernhard, which he answered very kindly and thoroughly!

I agree, different people have different problems because of individual types of hands, strength, psychological reasons, etc.  My hands are rather small, so I have a much easier time with fast runs than I do with big chords, for example.  Ornaments and long trills are no problem for me, but spanning a tenth is impossible.

That said, I believe general ranking is not invalid with the understanding that it's not carved in stone.  Obviously you don't want to immediately tackle Beethoven's Appassionata if you barely got through Fur Elise last month. 

It's odd about key signatures, but I think in general the more accidentals, the more daunting it tends to look at the beginning.  Once you learn the notes, it isn't so bad.  I hated the 5 sharps in the Rach G# minor prelude, but it wasn't so bad AFTER I got the nortes.  On the other hand 5 flats don't bother me nearly as much--??

All the best, Teresa
 

[BoliverAllmon]

I think Bach PC's are a good choice.

[teresa_b]

Hi Boliver,

They surely are.  Several Bach ones have been done by the group in recent years, so I was looking at something else--
Thanks!
Teresa