Bruce Lee,s one inch punch.

[zheer]

I was reading CC's book on playing chords, he talks about the concept of gravity drops, though he has a good point and you can creat a good sound this way,however i cant see haw this can work at a fast tempo.
           Basically this reminded me of the way Bruse Lee could through a grown man from one end of the room to another by punching them only with one inch between his fist and the person. So all this talk about using your shoulder muscle, your arm and back is false. IT is very possible to creat the loudest sound at a fast tempo without using your shoulder muscle etc etc etc. Instead use the force that comes from all your body that can not bee seen with the eyes. The fingers can be 1 mm away from the keys,and still be able to creat the volume that a diferent pianist creats by droping his hand from a hight of 1 meter.
         

[steve jones]

I was reading CC's book on playing chords, he talks about the concept of gravity drops, though he has a good point and you can creat a good sound this way,however i cant see haw this can work at a fast tempo.
           Basically this reminded me of the way Bruse Lee could through a grown man from one end of the room to another by punching them only with one inch between his fist and the person. So all this talk about using your shoulder muscle, your arm and back is false. IT is very possible to creat the loudest sound at a fast tempo without using your shoulder muscle etc etc etc. Instead use the force that comes from all your body that can not bee seen with the eyes. The fingers can be 1 mm away from the keys,and still be able to creat the volume that a diferent pianist creats by droping his hand from a hight of 1 meter.
         

The 1 inch punch is all about transference of weight. Lee managed to develop a technique where he could create the necessary momentum to transfer a significant portion of his body weight using just an inch. Its very impression, but not nearly as 'mystic' as the legends would have it. Bruce Lee was phenomenal, but he wasnt all he was hyped to be. For example, he never once (to my knowledge) fought in Bangkok under Muay Thai rules.

But thats another story... 

Yeah, I agree with you. The bodies weight is where its most efficient 'strength' lies. If you can harness that, then no more sweeting over FFF passages! Thats probably how some of the virtuoso's make loud passages look so effortless.

[zheer]

Am glad you agree steve jones, but i think you are not understanding me. Am not talking about weight, or transference of weight. For example if we think about Rach's prelude in C# minor, well i dont want too show off or pretend that am something that am not, but on a grand piano i can play the last pages of this prelude so loud that the windows of the building will blowup. This can be achieved without any weight transference, and what might look like no visible physical effort. Basically from a distance of 1 mm from the keybord and with no movement from any other part of the body it is possible to creat a thunder storm . If it is done propaly, it has a very dramatic effect on the audience.
     Anyone can learn this.

[steve jones]

Ah, I think I know what you mean. I believe I was doing something similar when I was learning Chopin Prelude 20 recently. I guess the technique could be considered comparable with a karate style strike (I know I know, Lee did do karate before you all start  )!

I guess the only way to tell if we are both doing the same thing would be for us to be in the same room and show one another. But after reading your description again more carefully, I think we are on the same page. Atleast, I nearly cause my old knackered upright to far apart the other day doing this.

[steve jones]

In trying to analyse this technique, i see that is very much like a punch. The subtle forward motion of the upper body, creating that 'solid' hit.

This is actually transference of weight, even though it may not seem like it (in the gravity drop sense). It is like how a boxer jabs, putting the shoulder into it to reinforce the flick of the arm - the power actually starts the the feet, allowing the arm to remain relaxed and sharp.

[zheer]

Ok we will call it transference of weight, since i think we are saying the same thing

[pianistimo]

agreed with you, zheer.  maybe the solar plexus?  i feel a lot of energy come from my 'gut' when i am feeling good and playing something that requires sound.  i used to think you had to have really strong fingers.  having a little bit of coordination and reflexes is important - but am realizing exactly what you say about how little effort it takes to make a good sound out of the piano.  you don't even have to lift your fingers very high - or move your arms around (or drop your arms).  just the natural weight of your arms/body will do.  maybe it's learning to truly relax.  i don't use much drop arm/hand weight anymore.  and leaning forward or back is about it for dynamics.

i feel like i give my piano light massages now.  you don't take your fingers off - but sort of legato touch from key to key.  otherwise you get 'key slap.'  something i've been learning about.  and, extraneous noises from the bass that sound like a 'buzz' if you play too excitedly.  all these extraneous noises ruin your recording sound.

*do you ever go away from a long practice session thinking you are invincible?  (not really, but just the feeling).  playing music is like getting charged by electricity or something.  just as people work out at karate schools, i think  piano practice makes you 'honed in' to your inner musicality.  can people use this as a weapon?  i'd like to see three or four pianists come of music practice rooms after 4-5 hours and take each other on.  just to see who would win.  who still has some stamina.  my teacher plays like he's just sipping a cup of tea.  he'd probably just use his tennis skills - and throw 5-6 tennis balls on the ground and let everyone slip and fall.  it's always something easy for him.

[zheer]

*do you ever go away from a long practice session thinking you are invincible?  (not really, but just the feeling).  playing music is like getting charged by electricity or something.  just as people work out at karate schools, i think  piano practice makes you 'honed in' to your inner musicality.  can people use this as a weapon?  i'd like to see three or four pianists come of music practice rooms after 4-5 hours and take each other on.  just to see who would win.  who still has some stamina.  my teacher plays like he's just sipping a cup of tea.  he'd probably just use his tennis skills - and throw 5-6 tennis balls on the ground and let everyone slip and fall.  it's always something easy for him.

    LOL, no not really i either feel disappointed or happy that i have improved.

Anyway the thing about playing chords am glad you agree, because you can really hear the differenc, the problem with droping your arm is, that the chord sounds like a block, and not 4 or 8 individual notes playd together. Try playing a c minor chord with your RH, dropping the right hand from a hight. you will notice that before you have even playd the chord, your hand is in a block shape, so as not to hit a wrong note when it lands on the keys.

[pianistimo]

yes.  we could actually do more damage sticking a few fingers out more than others.  take it from bruce lee.  he finds the weak points in the wood (piano?) and makes it have to defend itself. 

[mound]

The 1 inch punch is all about transference of weight. Lee managed to develop a technique where he could create the necessary momentum to transfer a significant portion of his body weight using just an inch. Its very impression, but not nearly as 'mystic' as the legends would have it. Bruce Lee was phenomenal, but he wasnt all he was hyped to be. For example, he never once (to my knowledge) fought in Bangkok under Muay Thai rules.

sorta.. First of all, Bruce Lee did not develop or otherwise invent this. The "Shaolin Body Lock" as it would more appropriately be named, existed long before he came around. He got in trouble with the Chinese community, as it were, for "sharing it". It also has less to do with transference of weight, and more to do with locking/aligning the body properly to achieve a transference of energy at the desired time and place, being rooted at the back heal, than it has to do with throwing weight around.

good thread though

[steve jones]

Mound,

Right. Actually, Im sure I remember something about that in Lee's bio - didnt they threaten him over teaching Wing Chun to westerners?

Yeah, energy and weight - maybe I am using the wrong terminology. I tend to consider the force of the body to be weight, as this is really what it comes down too. Power = weight x speed. But I dont use weight in the 'thrown yourself into a brick wall' sense of the word.

When I say weight, this is what I mean:

- Stand facing a wall.

- Hold your right arm so that the fist is against the wall, and you body square.

- Push into the wall, from the feet and throw the shoulder.

This is effectively the transference of weight that I speak of (though some might call it energy or force). This is the way punching is in boxing and Muay Thai. The weight of the body is channelled in sharp, relaxed motions, and the result is full force punch.

I tend to this of a karate strike as being about energy and force. From what Iv seen of karate they attempt to generate explosive motions using tension. There is no transference of weight in these motions, and as such they are less powerful and effectient.

Take the karate roundhouse for example - a flick kick generating power from the knee (when, thy I guess). This is much weaker than the Muay thai roundhouse when the body is rotated to deliver full weight, yet remains a fast, sharp motion rather than a swing.

Anyway, enough martial arts ranting from me  Suffice to say I think we are talking about the same thing!

[pianistimo]

mound, you say rooted at the heel?  that sounds right...having balance.  like tai chi.   'going down the river, rotate your coconut,  hand your coconut to a friend.' 

[rimv2]

sorta.. First of all, Bruce Lee did not develop or otherwise invent this. The "Shaolin Body Lock" as it would more appropriately be named, existed long before he came around. He got in trouble with the Chinese community, as it were, for "sharing it". It also has less to do with transference of weight, and more to do with locking/aligning the body properly to achieve a transference of energy at the desired time and place, being rooted at the back heal, than it has to do with throwing weight around.

good thread though

AHAHAAHA

Finally a somewhat sane analysis.


But the transfer of energy is linked to the small shifts in weight that take place through the ever so small movements of the body.

F= MA

Just being a smart-ash, however I understand the concept

Transferring of weight at the piano has less of an effect than sheer velocity. You can lean forward until your fingers break and never produce as loud a fff as you could with a quick snap of all the upperbody and hand muscles. Though improperly coordinated this can be a very bad thing to do.

[steve jones]

Id imagine getting the weight:velocity ratio wrong could result in some nasty injuries! Maybe we should all do Bruce Lee one finger press ups as part of a Rachmaninoff training regime 

[maul]

[steve jones]

Thats the way I look when Iv just finished Moonlight 3