Abortions

[lisztisforkids]

I know this is quite a touchy topic for many people. I only wish one thing in this thread.
NO RELIGON. Religous talk sidetracks whole topics.

Anyway... My ex-girlfriend had 2 abortions (both pregnancys were with me),
It took a lot of soul searching... I still question this decison everyday of my life...
One of the most influential moments in my life.   

I beleive that women have a right to an Abortion, only if there is a medical emergeny or if its your first time and your young and got a bright future ahead of you.

Its ridiculous how some girls have 5 or 6 abortions, it disgusts me. I dident used to have this opinion until my girlfreinds abortions. It changes you.

[cziffra]

I used to be against it alot, but then I sat down and thought about it, and I realised it isn't that bad.  Granted, the dumb ho should get on birth control etc, and the parents would probably put the kid up for adoption after birth anyways.  The foster care system in America id fucked up, and I wouldn't want to subject anyone to it.

[gilad]

wow, that's pretty profound liszt.

i'm not for or against it, i havn't really formed an opinion.
but it's really irresponsible of anyone to have 5 or 6 abortions.
to have one abortion in order to not have your life turned upside down may sound reasonable to me. to have to 2, well, woops i messed up again, but that the last time.
 3,4,5,6. nah, thats thoughtless and shouldnt be happening.
but i'm not judging, just giving my opinion.

[pianistimo]

it's funny you bring up the subject and then say 'no religion.'  what you mean is 'no God.'  if there's no God, you can do pretty much as you please and have no conscience. Christ said, 'go and sin no more.'  that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

ps.  nobody's perfect, so nobody's pointing fingers.  maybe in the long run, God knows what's going to happen and what things in life will change us for the better.  i was somewhat devastated at first to find out i had a third pregnancy at 40.  i was scared and somewhat shocked because i thought that your chances for pregnancy went wAY down after 35.  BUT, now that i have my daughter, i can't imagine life without her.  i am somewhat ashamed and embarrassed to have had negative feelings at first.  AND, the delivery went well (unlike what i expected).

maybe your girlfriend was saved from a very hard delivery.  this world is very harsh (not just on babies) but on young people.  i would, if i were you, talk to young women and men in highschool before this choice is given to them.  often, all that is said is 'use condoms.'  i think more should be said.  'this is an emotional decision that may affect you the rest of your life (whether your girlfriend or boyfriend gets pregnant or not).  try abstinence! then, you know for certain that you won't get an STD (since condoms break and can sometimes have holes) and chlamydia ? or something like that can be transmitted even if a condom is used.  it's one of those diseases that causes painful urination in guys.  who wants to get stuck with having to take antibiotics and all that.  i've noticed, too, that many teens would probably have much less skin problems (may be due to unnatural guilt feelings, disease from too many sex partners) if they just abstained.

ok.  enough rant.  this is only what i would tell my own children who aren't particularly into God or religion either.  but, i still have my say.

[cziffra]

No, believing in God does not yield a lack of morality or anything.  In fact, the average athiest probably has more morals than the average christian.  Not going around bashing entire minorities of people all the time (gays, muslims, etc)

[brewtality]

I know this is quite a touchy topic for many people. I only wish one thing in this thread.
NO RELIGON. Religous talk sidetracks whole topics.

Anyway... My ex-girlfriend had 2 abortions (both pregnancys were with me),
It took a lot of soul searching... I still question this decison everyday of my life...
One of the most influential moments in my life.   

Jeez, that sounds really sad. I could understand getting 1 abortion, but multiple ones? that doesn't really sit right with me. It's interesting because there has been considerable debate in Australia recently about whether to allow a so called "abortion pill" to enter the market, the health minister is a stauch catholic and he has right of veto, several people introduced a bill to strip him of this right, with some women senators sharing their own experiences with abortion. I think I would probably fall into the second category, generally I don't believe in convenience abortions but aborting children of rape is ok.

pianistimo I do not wish to engage you in discussion of this point, since the original poster explicitly said no religion, but I think your statement that conscience is somehow linked to god is ludicrous. Last time I checked, despite being a non-believer, I don't "do pretty much as please".

[pianistimo]

from a strictly 'what happens' point of view - i've watched some shows about abortion and found it interesting that many women go in for an abortion relieving their 'guilty' feelings and thinking 'ok, this is just a thing at this point.'  many women, afterwards, have nightmares or dreams that are scary to them - that make them realize the magnitude of what has happened.  they usually don't say 'i aborted a thing' anymore in their minds.  they refer to the lost 'baby.'

also, women sometimes lose the ability to carry normal pregnancies (because of damage to the cervix - which holds the babies in) or an inability to even conceive afterwards because of scar tissue in the womb and no place for the blastocyst to grow.  then, there is also the danger that after an abortion a woman may (don't know the percentage) spontaneously keep bleeding and die.  one woman on the show i was watching had this problem.  she went home and continued bleeding - and had to go to the emergency room because the clinic was closed and afterward didn't acknowledge responsibility for the abortion's damage to her body.

i believe the choices facing young girls (and guys) today is way more than they need to think about.  i wish life were simpler. and, i agree, you don't have to be Christian to abstain.  a lot of times, sex is simply peer pressure.  if lisztisforkids went with his ex-girlfriend to two or three sessions of a sex-ed class in jr. high (highschool is too late) they might convince a whole class to make a pact on abstinence.  it wouldn't have to have Christian overtones.  just simply a way to avoid things that get through condoms (such as chlamydia ?) or one of those diseases that causes painful urination in guys.  also, the dangers of not knowing if the person you are with has had mutiple sex-partners.  kids at that age are more prone (i think) to not be completely honest.  when a couple gets married, for instance, you have the back up blood work that is required also, to make sure you are both 'clean.'  some std's can be sadly passed to children at the time of birth.  nobody would purposely choose this.

a lot of physical activity, high intake of caffeine, and other things can cause spontanous abortion at the early stages of pregnancy.  in early times, many spontaneous abortions happened to women.  but, i wouldn't count on these things - or try to do them in case you have a full term baby and harm it in the early stages.  for rape, i don't know what is the best thing.  maybe prayer.  i mean, if a girl wasn't looking to get raped and pregnant, then she has God to help her because He's the giver of life anyway.  i think that if He gives life, he can take it.  that's my viewpoint. 

[pianistimo]

perhaps i'm one of those overly protective mothers and talk too much, but i'm curious what guys think about breast implants.  most guys that i've talked to say 'that is unnatural.'  so why wouldn't abortion be 'unnatural' too.  what is natural about getting a baby yanked out of you?

from what i've read and experienced, i think when girls have a close relationship with their fathers, they are less prone to have sex early.  they are the ones that just say 'no.'  they're not looking for sex to validate them as people with something to contribute, or looking to escape from a situation, or for lonliness.  also, i think dad's should actively take out their daughters.  my husband, for instance, has started taking out my daughter (11) once a month to a movie or shopping at the mall.  he doesn't have to spend a lot of money, but it's mostly spending time and making her feel important and that she can talk to him (about anything).  if anything really bad happened, i think she might even tell him before me.  i'm really trying to do the same with my son.  we went to the mall the other day - talk about a lot of stuff, joke around, and yet are serious about what's going on in his life.  what his goals are.  i try to praise him for the good things he does - and how it will affect the rest of his life.  what to look for in girlfriend - and how to behave.  i tell him #1 do whatever you tell her dad you're going out to do (movie, etc) #2 go with a friend (doubledate - just in case there is problem with one car or the other - and to keep girls safe) #3 bring her back at the time you say you will.  if you stop over at another place - call home - tell her parents what's going on.  be responsible for the girl like she's your sister.  they may not like it that you don't 'come on' to them more than a kiss - but who's care is that later?

[pianohopper]

(whether your girlfriend or boyfriend gets pregnant or not)

I'd be seriously worried if your boyfriend got pregnant. 

On a serious note, I am not directly opposed or for it either way.  What I do not like is a government trying to prevent such a deeply, deeply personal matter.  That is taking it too far.  You can ask, what right does a single person have to take away life?  But I ask, instead, what right does a government -- a body of predominately white males who have no emotional connection to the people they are affecting --  what right do they have to dictate who lives and who dies? 

Further, think of the hypocrisy.  The right-wing, conservative Republicans (and even some liberal Democrats)  are morally offended by the thought of "killing" a fetus, even though it may not feel any pain, and yet they are just as willing to send fully-developed young men and women with bright futures, long lies ahead of them to war, to Iraq, to the Middle East, to ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH OR INJURY. 

What right does anyone have to say who is right and who is wrong? 

[prometheus]

if there's no God, you can do pretty much as you please and have no conscience.

This is totally absurd to say. Actually, with Christianity you can do all you want without it having any conscequence. As long as you accept Jesus you will go to heaven, no matter what Plus, this life is not important, it is just a test, it is fake. The only thing you have to do is accept Jesus.

Personally I find abortion a very awkward topic. Sure, females should have the right to abort their embryo. But I find it so utterly irresponsible. It's not the abortion that I have a real problem with, in that case the mistake has already been made, but what happens before the abortion.

I would never abort my child, ever. It is not that I think it is that wrong or immoral. If I descide to abort, or rather support, the abortion then I have failed. And I cannot accept that.

So that means that I would never have sex with a person I would not want to raise a child with, given the circumstances. It can always go wrong. Condoms can tear, anti-conception pills don't have a 100% succes rate, etc. So when I have sex I must face the possibility of my partner getting pregnant. I must face the concequences and consider them. If that road would be impossible for me then I cannot have sex.

Apperently many people don't care. And they don't use anti-conception either, it seems. What's up with that? I don't understand.

Several things bother me. The fact that I am not ready to be a father, the fact that I am not sure how to handle all the responsibility. How can one ever have sex considering the consequenses.
The other is, if my partner would get pregnant by accident and she wanted an abortion and I don't. What then? It's just as much my child as her's. It is just that it grows in her body. I think that males should have the right to get pregnant too.
Probably, before I ever have sex I will have to exclude all unwanted scenario's.

As for the people that have several abortions. It is their right. But they won't escape my judgement. They are failed humans in my eyes.

[00range]

Looking for a safe stance on abortion?

https://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive

[contrapunctus]

Abortion is murder, nothing more to it. A opinion is that abortion is wrong unless the baby was the result of rape, etc. or will completely mess up the ***'s life. As for the rape victim: A child is a human being with a potential of its own. You would steal that away by having an abortion. The baby does not belong to the women, it is its own entity, its own self. For the person who thinks having a baby will mess up their lives: Maybe you should have thought about it before you went around f** every guy you saw.
For the medical emergency person: it is beyond extreme unselfishness not to give up your own life for your child. In the justice system murding a pregnant woman counts as two counts or murder. You are essentially murdering another individual.

P.S.   Smile, your mother chose life.

[ted]

Considering the nature of our forum, I am surprised nobody has come up with this:

The father is syphilitic, an intractable alcoholic and beats his children. The mother has tuberculosis and the family is in constant poverty with little hope of recovery. She finds herself pregnant. Would you recommend abortion ? Yes ?

You have killed Beethoven.

An overly emotional and statistically invalid example ? Probably. But it seems to me that it contains a germ of truth about what we are up against when we consider this important question. We are faced with our own inadequacy. We are faced with the unpalatable truth that there exist questions which cannot be  easily answered one way or the other whatever our religious or moral convictions.

I can answer easily enough that abortion should be available, but that is just a nominal and technically obvious answer. There is a thin line between kindness, compassion and mere expediency and irreverence for life. The site posted by OOrange is horrible, but it is an important reminder that abortion lies on the continuum which has that as one extreme.

In short, I find the issue extremely difficult in the particular and totally impossible in the general. Over the past fifty years I have seen good people faced with this question who have decided in different ways. They are all people for whom I have the highest moral regard.

[timothy42b]

Liszt,

You say to leave religion out of it.

Then you say you are opposed and it is "disgusting." 

I think your reasons are religious in nature.  Most people's are.  (Although scripturally you can argue either side.) 

Can you yourself defend your position on nonreligious grounds?  If not, you are being hypocritical with your conditions.  For example, medically it is clearly more hazardous to carry a child to term than to abort, and the earlier you abort the safer this gets.  So you can't argue on the basis of utility. 

If you claim it is murder, you must a) defend that position, and b) justify the prohibition of this type of murder on nonreligious grounds and c) abandon your exceptions for rape, incest, and protection of the mother. 

Personally, I can't see how removing a single cell that has no nervous system (won't for many, many cell divisions, none of which are guaranteed) can be construed as murder.  There simply does not exist a person at that point.  Only a potential for possibly developing one.  So there is my purely nonreligious reason for saying okay.  But there ARE some religious implications, both pro and con. 

By the way, who started this thread?  Abortion, religion, and gun control in the same thread, and this is not trolling?  <grin> 

[ada]

Gosh how revealing these replies are! Very fraught waters. I suspect opinions are divided, as they usually are, along religious and gender lines.

It took a lot of soul searching... I still question this decison everyday of my life...
One of the most influential moments in my life.   

Poignant observation from Liszt from a male perspective.

there has been considerable debate in Australia recently about whether to allow a so called "abortion pill" to enter the market, the health minister is a stauch catholic and he has right of veto, several people introduced a bill to strip him of this right

It should be pointed out that the debate is about whether a government minister or a board of medical experts should be allowed to make decisions about the safety and availability of a drug. It's not supposed to be about abortion (although that's what it's become because the debate has been hijacked by the anti-abortion lobby)

Also, I don't think there's such a thing as a "convenience abortion". Women don't have abortions for convenience.

Personally, I can't see how removing a single cell that has no nervous system (won't for many, many cell divisions, none of which are guaranteed) can be construed as murder. There simply does not exist a person at that point. Only a potential for possibly developing one.

In all fairness, it's not a single cell. It stopped being a single cell at fertilisation. By the same token it's certainly not a viable baby.

I think personally the point to remember is that you can ban abortions, you can deny women services, you can bomb abortion clinics, you jail and fine doctors who do abortions. You can preach abstinence and lecture responsibility and shove sex education down the throats of kids until the cows come home.

But you're not going to stop people from having unwanted pregnancies or from trying to get rid of them.

You're just going to drive abortion underground or drive individuals to dangerous and desperate measures.

And you are going to cause a whole lot of grief for a whole lot of people.

[pianistimo]

personally i see no difference between finding a full term baby in the trash can and a small fetus in the toilet.  people who spontaneously abort, i believe, are not held accountable for murder.  but, in the bible, technically even a man who is married and leaves his sperm on the bed or around the woman (example of onan- forget which chapter/verse) - is liable for God's anger.  at first that seemed bizarre to me - because we don't think of sex as having that particular purpose all the time.  in our society, it is enjoyment, fun, no responsibility involved.   

i can understand the different perspectives in each culture, and find that the cultures that i respect would be those that DO have large families (which is a result of letting things happen naturally).  of course, there is a financial burden to this if you are not organized and strong.  sometimes certain cultures have more help in place for the woman (ie mother and mother-in-laws around).  for women today, it's very difficult because you don't have the 'infrastructure' around you to hold you up - or help you on a difficult day. 

i guess that withholding judgement is the best policy.  if someone aborts, it is their own responsibility and choice to deal with.  i would hate to see governments take only one religion (and leave mine out) - so also, i would hate for them to decide who will live and who will die.  to me this is a different form of religion.  i also am against bombing clinics, or telling mothers that want an abortion that they cannot because of MY religion.  it's just that schools should make children aware of what actually HAPPENS during an abortion.  cultures that use it as a last measure are much different than those that make it a public stance on casual sex.  i mean, if a girl came to me for advice and was only 13, i'd probably not have the stance that i do (esp. if it was rape).  if there was a pill that she took, i'd think ok. it might be a sin - but which is greater - making her deliver a baby that her body isn't ready for.  Christ can forgive all sins - it's just that we shouldn't keep on sinning - or unduly bear the burdens of another persons sins.

btw, i agree with many of the statements of ted and the extremes of each side.  ultimately, the baby is a life (as contrapunctus said) and whenever a life is taken, it is murder.  yet, we have murder every day in most countries whether it is by abortion or stabbing or shooting.  it is no less of a sin that God cannot heal or forgive.  i think education is KEY.  people don't act with knowledge sometimes.  i find prometheus very thoughtful in his responses (except wondered about men being allowed to get pregnant).  if you sincerely take into account the feelings of the other person - you will have empathy and as he said - want to make sure the child is loved and cared for by both parents.  if the woman goes off and has the baby on her own - she will need a network of support - which i agree - often isn't there.  very difficult life.

[timothy42b]

personally i see no difference between finding a full term baby in the trash can and a small fetus in the toilet.  people who spontaneously abort, i believe, are not held accountable for murder.  but, in the bible, technically even a man who is married and leaves his sperm on the bed or around the woman (example of onan- forget which chapter/verse) - is liable for God's anger.  <snip>

Technically correct, I think onanism is one of the 620 or so OT directives, but not on a level with murder. 

Murder requires life, and by OT definition life required taking breath.  So until the first breath had been drawn, OT would not have considered this a crime against the fetus.  It did however consider causing a miscarriage to be a crime - a property crime.  It deprived the husband of the full value of his property, the wife.  So someone causing a miscarriage was required to compensate the husband. 

I'm not that fanatical but I do see a distinction between an embryo and a baby.  We start with a single cell (combination of egg and sperm) and divide many many times before getting a nervous system.  Without a nervous system we have no consciousness, no awareness, no way to touch God, therefore no soul. 

Just my opinion. 

[lisztisforkids]

Liszt,

You say to leave religion out of it.

Then you say you are opposed and it is "disgusting." 

I think your reasons are religious in nature.  Most people's are.  (Although scripturally you can argue either side.) 

My reasons for opposition are not religous in nature what so ever.

 

If you claim it is murder, you must a) defend that position, and b) justify the prohibition of this type of murder on nonreligious grounds and c) abandon your exceptions for rape, incest, and protection of the mother.

A) when is a fetus a baby? when is it alive? at fertilization? 2 months? 6 months?
8 months? or how about right after birth?  I beleive that a fetus is alive from the very start of fertilation. It dosent make sense to say 'Its only alive after 4 months' or something like that.
Would you kill your newly born son? ofcourse not, but a 2 month old 'fetus'? Yes you would.

B) You wouldent kill a baby, but you kill a fetus.. Whats the difference? Why?   I am not religous.. But I do know what is right and what is wrong. Well I tried...

C) I really beleive if my girlfreind had her babys than my life and hers would have ended.
No piano for me. No dance for her. No life... Misery... We would be extremely hard pressed to provide for the baby to. Adoption was out of the question. I couldent handle knowing I had a kid somewere out in the country...  There are many cases were a pregnant womens life is threatend, and abortion is a only way out for the safety of the mother. Fine call me a hypocrite..

It should be noted that my girlfirend almost died during the second abortion,  she started to bleed very heavily...

Interestingly.. She wanted to have the babys.. I pressed her for the abortions. So I take the balme for it.

[steve jones]

If an abortion prevents an unwanted child from suffering abuse at the hands of an unfit parent, then I am for it. I dont believe a child in the womb (atleast in the early stages) is capable of suffering, so I dont feel to bad about that. Atleast no where near compared to the suffering it will endure in its life.

But then again, Id prefer it if they just didnt keep getting pregger's in the first place!

[pantonality]

The abortion debate is an interesting dichotomy between "all life is precious" and does the government have the right to tell women what they can do with their bodies. However, a little historical perspective may be helpful. Before Roe v Wade abortion was illegal nationwide. Some women ripped up their insides with coat hangers and bled to death, others went to doctors who "did abortions on the side" and were unsupported if complications (such as infection) arose (which they often do). So when the Democrats talk about keeping abortion "safe and legal" there's a historical reason. So just as people will have unprotected sex so will they pursue avenues for eliminating the consequences of that sex.

OTOH in a perfect world men and women would respect life and plan their activities accordingly. Unfortunately the world is not perfect (at least the last time I looked) and even many supposedly mature people don't seem to take a very mature outlook on matters of breeding. Many want to punish those whose activities cause them to "get in a family way." Others OTOH remain blithely nonchalant about the making and taking of life. Having multiple abortions really is irresponsible (didn't ya figure it out the first time?).

Then there's the question of government involvement (we still haven't gotten to the religious aspect). Do we really want our government enforcing a ban on a procedure that will cause many to lose their lives (so much for the life is precious argument)? IMO if the antiabortion lobby really cared they would do more to support these unfortunate women. I think those who opposed abortion should be more active in supporting supports for unwed mothers, and informing them about adoption options. I know many people who have gone to Russia or China to adopt a baby so quite obviously there's a interest in infants in this country that's not being met.

Ultimately, such decisions are very personal. It's between a woman and her conscience and her personal beliefs. Men don't get to make these decisions (except when it comes to influencing her choice or passing laws). Women if they choose can hit a guy pretty hard financially by saddling him with child support payments for 18 years, but that's a matter of personal responsibility. If he called the tune he can pay the piper.

Steve

[prometheus]

I don't think the government has any right to tell people what is ethical and what is not.

[pianistimo]

my heart goes out to your lisztisforkids, because it sounds like you do care!  some guys don't really have a clue or feelings for what the woman goes through.  you mentioned 'girlfriend' this time and not ex-girlfriend.  i kind of hope you work it out and she forgives you and you get together - long term.  maybe you'll be blessed at the right time and she'll be able to get over the pain.  she must love you (i hope) to want to have your baby.  i think that's a positive sign - even though you are probably right about the timing.  maybe when she fully understands this - she'll be able to forgive and forget (if she hasn't already).

[sonatainfsharp]

I know this is quite a touchy topic for many people. I only wish one thing in this thread.
NO RELIGON. Religous talk sidetracks whole topics.

Ummmm, for most people, abortion is 100% a religious topic. Isn't that why there is a debate to begin with? If it were up to science, then there would be a concrete "answer," eliminating the need for a debate in the first place.

It took a lot of soul searching...

I thought you said no religion?

[luvslive]

everyone has a soul-even those who do not belong to a particular religion...

[lisztisforkids]

my heart goes out to your lisztisforkids, because it sounds like you do care!  some guys don't really have a clue or feelings for what the woman goes through.  you mentioned 'girlfriend' this time and not ex-girlfriend.  i kind of hope you work it out and she forgives you and you get together - long term.  maybe you'll be blessed at the right time and she'll be able to get over the pain.  she must love you (i hope) to want to have your baby.  i think that's a positive sign - even though you are probably right about the timing.  maybe when she fully understands this - she'll be able to forgive and forget (if she hasn't already).

She wont come back to me ever again. I did something horrible to her... I wasent there when she needed me at the most.  Women cant forget things like this. She was very depressed after the abortions. Its completley different for women than men.Thanks pianistimo. Mabaye someday, she will come back.

I don't think the government has any right to tell people what is ethical and what is not.

I agree with you. I think what the govermnet should do instead is to promote education on the subject of sex in general.

[steve jones]

"I think what the govermnet should do instead is to promote education on the subject of sex in general"

Really?

Do you think that people are uneducated, or just dont care?

A pesimistic view, admittedly. But I think 99.9% of girls who have abortions knew exactly what they were doing. Its not complicated, unprotected sex = STD's and pregnancy!

I can understand people making a mistake, but know one in the western world (about the age of about 10) should be able to say they didnt know.

[luvslive]

If I might just add my two cents...
Yes, most people probably know how to protect themselves.  But how many teenagers will go to the doctor for a prescription for birth control.  This is where it is the parents' jobs to know what their kid is capable of and if necessary get them on the pill.  Does the pill always work?  No, there is a small chance it will fail.  OR, if you miss a pill or two and don't realize it.  Have you ever forgotten to take your multivitamin?  Well, imagine if you now have to raise a child, or two(twins) because you made a simple mistake.  Even if you are late taking it by a couple hours it is less effective.  I think a lot of people don't realize this.
Is the pill expensive?  Oh yes, and getting more so.  My generic brand is $33 a month.   I guess some people may have trouble affording it. 
Does the pill have side effects?  I have heard of girls becoming severly depressed while on it...might they be tempted to go off it?  I think so.  Other contraceptions are limited as well if not used properly. 
I think we should leave abortion legal, just like we leave purchasing weapons legal, and purchasing alcohol legal.  Are these things deadly?  Yes.  Do I wish that there was an easy answer to all this?  Yes, but there is not. 
I find it interesting how the media glorifies families with 20 kids (not adopted) and quintuplets and such.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should.  I would rather good people consider foster parenting or adopting...
And what about women who do not want to have children?  Why is this considered such an evil thing?  And why should we sacrifice our bodies to give birth?  If I was going to die to give birth I don't think I would do it!  I think my husband would rather that I live too!  Why have a motherless child!  This is survival.  If I knew my child then I might change my mind, but this is a baby who has not even been born we are talking about..
I think this is an excellent discussion and everyone is bringing up valid points, and no name calling!  we are doing better than the politicians, i think

[pianohopper]

You are essentially murdering another individual.

How is this any different than murdering a man then, and how is it more wrong than killing a soldier, who has much more possibility in his life than an unborn child.

Would you rather have a child live a tortured existence?  The mother, say she cannot possibly support a child, and the father disappears?  This is another child born into poverty, with virtually no way up because face it: the poor remain essentially uneducated.  Without education, there is no way up in the world. 

And if this is a religious issue, here is the question:  Wouldn't then this aborted baby be going straight to heaven?  And then wouldn't that be better than living hell?

[Siberian Husky]

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[musik_man]

As I see it, the whole issue comes down to whether or not the fetus is a human.  If it is one, then abortion is murder and should be illegal.  If it isn't, abortions for everyone!  The humanity of the fetus is a philisophical/religuous item to some extent, so I don't think that this issue will ever resolve.  My personal stance is that abortion is definitely murder when you get late into the pregnancy, and I'm somewhat undecided on  what it is earlier in the pregnancy.

Would you rather have a child live a tortured existence? The mother, say she cannot possibly support a child, and the father disappears? This is another child born into poverty, with virtually no way up because face it: the poor remain essentially uneducated. Without education, there is no way up in the world.

And if this is a religious issue, here is the question: Wouldn't then this aborted baby be going straight to heaven? And then wouldn't that be better than living hell?

So aborted babies are better off because they won't have to live as druggies, homeless, or prostitutes...  Based off of this logic, you need to go downtown in a major city with a .45 and release all the homeless, druggies and prostitutes you see from their hideous torture that only a cynic would call life.  Good luck with that.

Siberian, God Bible Jesus.  Jesus Jesus God!  Bible Jesus Bible Bible Jesus?

Pianistimo, Onan's sin was only because he was sleeping with his sister in law(with his brother's consent) for the purpose of baby making because his brother couldn't impregnate her.  So the use of contraceptives isn't sinful.

[timothy42b]

everyone has a soul-even those who do not belong to a particular religion...

I'm not sure that is correct.

As far as I know the concept of a soul is part of almost every religion.  But it is a religious concept per se.  So while you might not have to belong to a specific religion, you would have to belong to some religion to have the concept be useful.  There is nothing in biology that can detect a soul, or distinguish from animals that have one and animals that don't.  

While some of us on this thread consider Adam and Eve to have been two actual humans, and many others consider the story metaphorical, either way the soul coincides with the fall.  The eating from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil" produced awareness - awareness of each other, awareness of the relationship to God.  This awareness was not possible before, this awareness is integral to the soul - ergo this is when man was given a soul.  

If you listen to enough antiabortion speakers, you will start to hear a common thread about responsibility, partly alluded to in this thread.  I'll make it very direct and concrete:  sex is bad.  women who have sex have sinned.  (you hear this argument mainly from male speakers, of course.)  having a baby is part of God's punishment for sex.  we must not do anything (abortion or birth control) that will lessen women being punished, because they've got it coming to them.  Now, this isn't made explicit, because when you do it looks kind of silly.  But see if you don't think it is there.  I do.  

[prometheus]

I talked about responsibility. Of course I think both the male and female are responsible. The way to do it is contra-conception of course. But if this fails, which is in theory possible, they must also be able to carry the responsibility. This is just how nature is, how evolution made us.

And in those stories where there is a young pregnant female and not a word about the males. Of course the males have made a big mistake here. They abused the female. But you are right. The male can ignore the consequences where a female cannot. The female is stigmated while the male is invisible. This is sad. But nature is sad. You are right, I don't think a god would be so cruel to come up with this.

[pianistimo]

somewhere in leviticus (17: 10 or 10:17) it says "the life is in the blood."  so, if a person takes that literally, then the woman and the baby (fetus) are two distinct lives once the baby develops a circulatory system and even before then it is fed with blood in the womb. 

i don't think God is against sex or having fun - obviously not every sexual experience brings pregnancy.  the catholics use the calendrical rhythm method and for some it works.  some have 6-7 children.  i can't say anyone i've talked to has regretted any of the children they've had.  mostly, just having the energy necessary to keep up with all of them.  but, once they are grown they are like 'arrows round your table.'  your family is strong.

onan married his sister-in-law because that was the ruling in OT times (that if a man's brother died, then he should take over and take care of his brother's wife).  onan wasn't into the idea (obviously) and i can't say that i don't understand - yet, in those days having children was important to the status of women.  he denied her a family name.  guess that's what was the culture back then.  today it would seem different to us because a family name often changes at divorce and 50% or more of marriages end before death. 

just so i don't sound like the kind of person that would 'beat' my bible over a person's head.  i wouldn't.  sometimes i joke with people about this, but i feel that the purpose of christians today isn't to be a majority voice, but a minority voice just giving a quiet repetition of God's own words.  it isn't our words.  we didn't create the world or come up with the idea of law or life or anything.  in fact, it's sometimes confusing to us!  why some children grow up in poverty and have to endure sufferring.

all i know for sure is what i've experienced.  you have to be mature enough to handle a certain amount of pain, sacrifice, and unlimited love when you have children.  otherwise they drive you crazy and you'll be wanting to escape the situation instead of enjoy it for what it is.  if i had had children at 20 - i'd have had a lot of energy but no patience.  i had my first at 28 and i was glad i waited.  this isn't to say that all women are like me.  i see many really young mothers who are super good moms.  i think it depends on how you see your future.  if your only goal is to be a mom (which isn't a bad goal) then have children early.  but, if you want to fulfill other goals first - it's better to wait - so the children aren't left alone a lot.  children need their parents, imo, and not babysitters 24/7.

[lagin]

As I see it, the whole issue comes down to whether or not the fetus is a human.  If it is one, then abortion is murder and should be illegal.  If it isn't, abortions for everyone!  The humanity of the fetus is a philisophical/religuous item to some extent, so I don't think that this issue will ever resolve.  My personal stance is that abortion is definitely murder when you get late into the pregnancy, and I'm somewhat undecided on  what it is earlier in the pregnancy.

I read an interesting article in a magazine once, and it had cool pictures, too.  This mom found out she needed an operation either on the baby or on the thingy that holds the baby (I'm so drawing a blank right now, embrio?), I can't remember which.  So anyway, the surgeon goes in and does his operation, and they have this awesome picture of this little, tiny, tiny, tiny, hand reaching out of the mom's open stomach and grasping the doctor's finger.  It's so cute!  And it was only a few weeks after conception, and the baby already had a perfect little hand!  I'm sorry, I'm a girl, I gush, okay!  If you do some research - I don't mean religious or political, though you could do that too.  I mean, if you do some MEDICAL research, you will see that the baby looks like a minature human being within just a few weeks.  (I'm not saying "you" to anyone in particular, btw, just a general "you.") 

Personally, I don't believe we have a non - living fetus, then the next day, poof!  A BABY!  Right from conception, he/she lives, and starts to grow!  One could always adopt their child out if they couldn't care for it.  My mom did with my brother because she had him at 18.  He grew up to become a singer, and he found her, and composed a song for her.  Then he sung it to her in front of a whole audience!  Okay, so I was only a year old at the time, but I can imagine how cool that would have been for them!

[ada]

We are all genetically hardwired to reproduce. That's what sex is all about. But we also have sophisticated brains that enable us to make plans and have goals and ideas about how to live our lives.

Those two aspects, the primordial drive to reproduce and the more recently developed ability to rationalise, have a tendency to collide. Add medical technology to the equation and you've got all the ingredients for a moral dilemma of substantial dimensions.

It's simplistic and niave to say women get pregnant because they don't care or are irresponsible and it's all their fault and they should just learn how to keep their legs together. There's also a nasty misogynist subtext in that argument.

It's also simplistic to say kids and teenagers are the only ones having abortions and that it's all about sex education. I don't know the stats for places like the US but that's certainly not borne out  by the figures where I am. Many women who have abortions are in the middle of careers, or are in long-term relationships/married with a number of children already, or find themselves pregnant relatively late in their lives after their families are complete.

And as the debate continues to rage in Australia one female politician came out with this gem of an argument against abortion: according to the hapless Dana Vaile if Australians don't stop aborting themselves the country will be overrun by Muslims. True. Read it and weep.

[brewtality]

It just goes to show how stupid Australians are for electing people like her.

[ada]

I'm not arguing with that. People get the politicians they deserve. Look at George W Bush. But I didn't vote for the Libs!