7 repetitions to learn anything

[will]

I have been re-reading some posts recently and found two quotes from Bernhard

"It takes 7 repetitions for the human brain to learn anything. So, choose a passage and
repeat it seven times. If after seven times you have not learnt it, it is because it is too large a chunk of information."

"So seven repeats is what directs your decision in regards to the size of the passage you are trying to tackle. There is no slack here. It is not six repeats, and it is not 8
repeats. It is exactly seven repeats."

   I understand about working memory being able to store 7 plus or minus 2 bits of
information at any one time but as far as I can tell this is not what Bernhard is getting
at.

   Can anyone point me to websites or other references that talk about the human brain
requiring 7 repetitions to learn anything?

Regards,
Will.

[Bob]

I think he means about maxing out your progress in each session.  If your mind can't handle it in seven reps, then you need to break it apart.  Otherwise, it's too big to handle in one session.  I think that's what he's getting at.  Nothing with the capacity of the mind to hold onto information all at once, but how about how much time you should spend trying to learn info or a skill.

[lostinidlewonder]

Also it is a rule that we used when we where in Primary school learning to read books. Our teacher use to say "The rule of Five". This meant that every time we came across a word we didn't know we would flick up one finger, if we got to the end of the page and all 5 fingers where used the book is too hard to read for us. I think what Bernhard is hilighting is a similar idea. If you find after a few repetitions (it could be even a little more than 7) that you are still not memorising or absorbing the piece, then the music you are trying to learn is too hard for you.

Of course this depends on how much music you are trying to absorb. If you are overly confident and try to learn pages at a time and then shrug your shoulders why you are not memorising the piece then perhaps you have to reduce the amount you are trying to learn in one go. But if we are now to the minimum of one bar, or half a bar and we still after so many repetitions cannot get it into our heads, then abandon the music, get something easier.

I read a while back that NASA said the human body has to train a new motor skill 20 repetitions times before it becomes subconscious. Like when Astronauts train in swimming pools, they are memorising how to fix something so that when they are up space they know what to do without problems and the training is based on repetion of the same tasks.

[I Love Xenakis]

The second remark was a joke.  It was referencing the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail, in which one of the characters must use the "Holy Hand Grenade" to destroy an evil rabbit, and the priest who explained how to use the Holy Hand Grenade went on this lost speel about how you have to count to three, not four, not 2 etc.  It's a pretty famous scene.  Seven or more should do fine, assuming he's correct.

[Bob]

Dang.  I thought it was serious the first time I read it.


I don't think it means the whoel piece is too difficult, but that "chunk" of information.  You just break the info into smaller pieces until it's manageable.

If anything, it's a method for pacing yourself and gauging mental strain.

[lisztisforkids]

My first piano teacher told me you had play things five times to get it correct, my organ teacher told me 3 times... I think its a matter of opinion. But always practice it right.

[will]

Thanks for the replies y'all.
   I'm still somewhat curious though since Bernhard said "It is not six repeats, and it is not 8
repeats. It is exactly seven repeats."
   I think he has read specific references to do with 7 being the magic number and I would like to find out where.

[gruffalo]

is it possible to do too many repetitions? i would think that doing lots of repetitions would get it permanently fixed in your head. maybe the danger could be in losing concentration and making a wrong note, and then remembering the wrong note. but say if you could play something 10 or 20 times to memorize it, without playing a note wrong, would it be too much? i dont know much about the psychology of all of this, so it would be nice to hear.

[BoliverAllmon]

is it possible to do too many repetitions? i would think that doing lots of repetitions would get it permanently fixed in your head. maybe the danger could be in losing concentration and making a wrong note, and then remembering the wrong note. but say if you could play something 10 or 20 times to memorize it, without playing a note wrong, would it be too much? i dont know much about the psychology of all of this, so it would be nice to hear.

why waste your time doing 20 repitions when you have it memorized after 7?

also 7 is a very important number. it is the number of God in numerology terms.

[Bob]

I think 7 was the cutoff to keep you moving, prevent you from spending too much time on one thing.  Not to ignore the subconscious, sinking into the brain, aspect either.

I think it was 7 attempts.  Not 7 times in a row perfectly. 

[BoliverAllmon]

my teacher told me I had 7 seven attempts to get it perfectly once and then I had to get it 7 times perfectly in a row to have it mastered before going on to the next session. I for whatever reason am not very disciplined at this and never give it more than a day or two before I go back to my old ways. I know shame on me.

[zheer]

7 what?    what a load of   b#~//$% and what a load of C~#%$£ that has got to be the bigest F#~?/'$! rubbish i have ever heard. It can take three years to learn haw to play a sonata or a piano concerto. I can honestly say i have had to work on various parts of various pieces like a thousand times.

[BoliverAllmon]

7 what?    what a load of   b#~//$% and what a load of C~#%$£ that has got to be the bigest F#~?/'$! rubbish i have ever heard. It can take three years to learn haw to play a sonata or a piano concerto. I can honestly say i have had to work on various parts of various pieces like a thousand times.

that is becaue you suck.

in reality you are thinking whle pieces. we are thinking half a bar or maybe even two notes.

[Bob]

that is becaue you suck.

Classic.    lol

Not to offend anyone.  I just found it amusing.  Problems with your piano playing?  It's because you suck. 

[zheer]

that is becaue you suck.

in reality you are thinking whle pieces. we are thinking half a bar or maybe even two notes.

   possibly

[BoliverAllmon]

Classic.    lol

Not to offend anyone.  I just found it amusing.  Problems with your piano playing?  It's because you suck. 

I find it funny as well.

[Bob]

The answer to everything -- you suck.

I think it might be the answer to every question on the boards.

Can't play fast enough?  You suck.
Can't learn fast enough?  You suck.
Question about a piece?  You suck.

That's the root cause of all the problems.  I bet there actually is a philosophy behind it -- that you are unchangeable.  That idea.

[BoliverAllmon]

you didn't know this philosophy, HA YOU SUCK!

[rohansahai]

you didn't know this philosophy, HA YOU SUCK!

You didn't know that HE didn't know this philosophy?? HA, YOU SUCK !

[gruffalo]

i think zheer got confused. we were talking about memory, as opposed to perfecting a piece. yes repetition is the key to getting fluent with the piece, but with repetition it takes a key amount of goes. right?

[zheer]

i think zheer got confused. we were talking about memory, as opposed to perfecting a piece. yes repetition is the key to getting fluent with the piece, but with repetition it takes a key amount of goes. right?

  Thanks gruffalo i new i had a friend on this forum, and yes i was not talking about memory.
Infact it is intresting haw important the time we spend away from the piano is when it comes to subconciosly solving problems and memorizing things. ( sorry i know am getting boring again )

[BoliverAllmon]

You didn't know that HE didn't know this philosophy?? HA, YOU SUCK !

now that is just immature. LOL

[Bob]

I was thinking about this today.  The 7 must be the 'gray' area.  The time were you don't quite have it down yet and concentration and repetition will help.  I mean -- just repeat things three times in a row and you see some results without even trying.  Something along those lines.


If all that makes sense.

[maxy]

I read a while back that NASA said the human body has to train a new motor skill 20 repetitions times before it becomes subconscious.

What??? it's not 40?   

[sauergrandson]

Uhm......

It is essential, therefore, before beginning with the practice of the piece, to visualize the same, whereupon, if this has been done thoroughly, we shall be able to play it correctly form memory.....

through visualization, without studying at the instrument itself, the piece can be perfectly performed and this in a most astonishingly short time (Gieseking-Leimer, "Piano Technique")

[gruffalo]

wow, this seven stuff is working great.

yea zheer, you're a nice guy (most of the time  ) but i usually like getting on with everyone.

[penguinlover]

I once posted that pianists don't usually shoot their own wounded.  After reading some of these posts, I think I may change my mind.  You guys are merciless!

[BoliverAllmon]

of course we shoot our wounded. that gives us a better chance at making it in the performance world. BWAHAHAHAHA

[penguinlover]

Oh, is that the secret!   Then I should say "you suck", but I won't.  I hope this is all in good fun.

[BoliverAllmon]

no you suck!!!!

yeah it is all in fun.

[henrah]

Uhm......

It is essential, therefore, before beginning with the practice of the piece, to visualize the same, whereupon, if this has been done thoroughly, we shall be able to play it correctly form memory.....

through visualization, without studying at the instrument itself, the piece can be perfectly performed and this in a most astonishingly short time (Gieseking-Leimer, "Piano Technique")

Hhmmm, that sounds interesting....gonna have to give that a go! *closes eyes and thinks of playing the Rach 3* blasted, if only I knew the piece

[tw0k1ngs]

Interesting, considering that I only have to go through a section usually 1-2 times before I memorize it.

[BoliverAllmon]

Interesting, considering that I only have to go through a section usually 1-2 times before I memorize it.

and should we give you a cookie for that?

[martha argerrrrrich]

I have been re-reading some posts recently and found two quotes from Bernhard

Bernhard took the quotes(or may be he was told by someone who took it) from George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff an Enlightened Man from Armenia.....but anyway interesting topic...

[pianohenry]

I dont know about repeating things 7 times to memorize them. i usually memorize the piece after a couple of times stumbling through it. after that, i can practice without the music, even if i cant play, it i can remember the exact notes and practice until i can without seeing the music.

[bernhard]

The number of God? The “gray” area? NASA? Enlightened men from Armenia?

Guys, you crack me up. I am surprised no one mentioned the seven charkas.

You should go back and read this stuff more carefully. It has nothing to do with memory, but with consciousness and learning.

Also, nothing wrong with a bit of independent research.

Start here:

Miller, G. A. – “The Magic Number 7 ± 2” American Psychologist, 1956

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

The number of God? The “gray” area? NASA? Enlightened men from Armenia?

Guys, you crack me up. I am surprised no one mentioned the seven charkas.

You should go back and read this stuff more carefully. It has nothing to do with memory, but with consciousness and learning.

Also, nothing wrong with a bit of independent research.

Start here:

Miller, G. A. – “The Magic Number 7 ± 2” American Psychologist, 1956

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

and this is why you should never leave us little kids again. !!!!!

[penguinlover]

and this is why you should never leave us little kids again. !!!!!

So True!  I have only been a member for a short while, but already am drawn to the wisdom of Bernhard.

[martha argerrrrrich]

The number of God? The “gray” area? NASA? Enlightened men from Armenia?

Guys, you crack me up. I am surprised no one mentioned the seven charkas.

You should go back and read this stuff more carefully. It has nothing to do with memory, but with consciousness and learning.

Also, nothing wrong with a bit of independent research.

Start here:

Miller, G. A. – “The Magic Number 7 ± 2” American Psychologist, 1956

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Hi Bernhard...
Who Said anything about Memory, may be ur are referring to some one else's quote but Gurdjieff also talks about Consciousness. May be U shud start here:

In Search of the Miraculous: Fragments of an Unknown Teaching (Harvest Book)  by P. D.Ouspensky teachings of Gurdjieff...


G.A.Miller, American Physcologist(!!!!hahaha) ... Thats ridiculous! took this philosophy from GURDJIEFF... Bernhard u cant hide from me man saying such a thing!

[bernhard]

Hi Bernhard...
Who Said anything about Memory, may be ur are referring to some one else's quote but Gurdjieff also talks about Consciousness. May be U shud start here:

In Search of the Miraculous: Fragments of an Unknown Teaching (Harvest Book)  by P. D.Ouspensky teachings of Gurdjieff...


G.A.Miller, American Physcologist(!!!!hahaha) ... Thats ridiculous! took this philosophy from GURDJIEFF... Bernhard u cant hide from me man saying such a thing!

What next? Scientology?

(Your reply somehow reminded me of this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg115317.html#msg115317

Enjoy  .)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[martha argerrrrrich]

What next? Scientology?

(Your reply somehow reminded me of this thread:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg115317.html#msg115317

Enjoy  .)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Boy O Boy!! Bernhard! You remind me of a cartoon character.....Scientology? You cant straight talk a few words without feeling defensive...Did u even study whats the book is all about. G.A.Miller  reminded me more of Scientology. You sound like a vessel full of Knowledge, So nothing new will get in u. You got to Unload some of ur(!!!)....Reminds me of a Zen Koan a Cup full of tea, no more tea to go in. Bernhard!! You are stuck like a heck! Do u know what the means! its very profound. Why dont u meditate upon it?

[will]

The number of God? The “gray” area? NASA? Enlightened men from Armenia?

Guys, you crack me up. I am surprised no one mentioned the seven charkas.

Crack you up in a good way?
What about the seven wonders of the world, the seven seas, the seven deadly sins, the seven daughters of Atlas in the Pleiades, the seven ages of man, the seven levels of hell, the seven primary colors, the seven notes of the musical scale, and the seven days of the week? What about the seven-point rating scale, the seven categories for absolute judgment, the seven objects in the span of attention, and the seven digits in the span of immediate memory....

You should go back and read this stuff more carefully. It has nothing to do with memory, but with consciousness and learning.

oh...must have confused one or two of your 4655 posts...

Also, nothing wrong with a bit of independent research.

Start here:

Miller, G. A. – “The Magic Number 7 ± 2” American Psychologist, 1956

Starting...thanks as always.

[dnephi]

Professional pianists say 21 correct repititions.

[bernhard]

Professional pianists say 21 correct repititions.

Yes, but what do they know? (they will probably also tell you that Hanon is good for you)

And actually, that was not my point. My point is that one needs to repeat something 7 times - some of them will be incorrect - in order to learn a passage. If one does not "learn" it (and this does not mean a perfect rendering either) after 7 repeats, repeating it 100 times will not help one either. It is advisable to cut the passage in half and try again. Eventually one will get to a section size one can learn in 7 repeats (they may not be perfect). So, the 7 times rule is a way for one to find out the size of section one can tackle.

Once one finds this out, then work on the section will actually begin, and it will not consist of blind repetition.  Quite the opposite, a huge variety of practice procedures (that by the way - and to my great surprise - a lot of well seasoned players seem never to have heard of) will be applied relentlessly to the passage, until it is completley mastered.

At this point, you can then check your mastery by repeating the passage three times (and not 21) in a row without mistakes.

Of course if one has low self esteem and a basic lack of confidence in one´s skills, then 21 times may be more reassuring. Heck, why not go for 121 times?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S. I know you were joking (before Barnowl barges in complaining of the lack of sense of humour amongst forum members )

[leucippus]

Yes, but what do they know? (they will probably also tell you that Hanon is good for you)

Hey, I think Hanon's good for you and I'm not even a professionalist.

And now that I've read this thread I can start breaking Hanon down into part that I can learn in 7 minutes.

Er, I mean seven days.

Or was that seven practice sessions?

Hmmmm?

I better go back and read this thread seven times until I can remember it.

Then if that's too much, I'll have to break it up into single posts and read them seven times each.

Oh heck with this!

I'm going to go practice the piano. 

Did I tell everyone that I'm learning a Debussy prelude?

Yeah me! 

I'm going to go apply the 7-times rule to some parts of it right now.

This is so exciting!

[dnephi]

My great-grandmother was taught by a student of Liszt.  She was asked to tour Europe at age 11.  She taught my mother that in your mind to absolutely solidify it for perfect, you need 21 correct in a row.  Further repitions develop a foundation so that you can be comfortable taking risks and playing from the soul.  NASA and other pianists confirm the above.

Btw Bernhard, have you heard Busoni's 12 commandments?  What do ya think?

[zheer]

  A difficult passage should be played through once, one should  stop a-little visualize the passage in his head, then repeat the passage, stop visualize think and repeat the passage. IF the difficult section is not learnt after a few attempts, its  a good idea to leave it to one side and come back to it latter or a-nother day.This method works well for me .

[bernhard]

Btw Bernhard, have you heard Busoni's 12 commandments?  What do ya think?

No I have not, but I would be very interested in them.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[lostinidlewonder]

I personally think it takes ONE repetition to learn a passage. But I put constraints on what one successful repetition means. To me it means there is no physical difficulties to produce the desired sound. If you play a passage and you hesitate to play notes here and there then you could do one billion mindless repetitions without focusing on  direct inmprovement.

Of course Bernhard meant 7 repetitions as simply a symbolic meaning, highlighting that we should not believe that endless repetition will cause us to learn a piece. It hit outs at our efficiency of learning music, we should question ourselves if a passage takes much longer than expected even though we have played through it 100 times, we might never actually achieve a repetition where we are completely comfortable and in control of the sound produced.

It is like reading a book. If you find on one page there are more than 5 words you do not understand then the book is too hard for you, you will waste time trying to read it, try something easier it will be much more beneficial. In studying music we should have similar approach, if after a small period of time a small passage of a peice cannot be learnt then we must question WHY is this so, what are we missing. Some people refuse to believe their difficulties at learning a piece and use the logic "if I repeat this long enough I'll get it." I think as we first develop at the piano we use this logic for alost everything we do, but there has to come a point where we must start to use better strategies to learn our music, or we will learn at a snails pace.

[pianistimo]

at this point, i prefer to do all of my practice away from the piano.  (just kidding.  now i'm wondering about the person who said this to me - so long ago.  i thought they were serious).

say, bernhard, you said later 7 +or- 2.  so, being the math whiz that i am - i thought, 'ok, five or nine.' 

now, what i do is combine all the good advice i get into one big snowball.  my grad teacher tries to cram 5 -6 -7 things into one 'repetition.'  i'm thinking about hand position, sound, relaxation, fluidity, etc. etc. - but usually i can only think of three things whilst doing one repetition.  so i repeat it again to do the other three things.

now, if his way of being efficient is to do the minimal work to get to the point of 'learned' - i would try to do five repetitions and see if the sixth and seventh could be nixed.  thereby, shaving off untold hours of practice on say a piano concerto.

in reality, for me i only practice what seems difficult and only repeat those passages.  if everything else is fairly easy - i just play it once or twice and go on to another piece of music.

i have learned that i can listen to myself better when i play along with my own tape recordings.  it sets things in my head that might usually take more 'repetitions' to memorize.  maybe it is teaching me to TRUST my ear.

agreed with everyone.  lostinidlewonder said it well about too many repetitions.  then, you have a hard time making it sound 'spontaneous.'

**also, perhaps the exact number varies on the difficulty of the passage and the student.  i'd probably expect grade 1-8 students to repeat things three times.  slow, medium, and fast as they could handle without mistakes.  for excellent students - it would be a refinement of that (patience allowing) to be slow (largo/processional), moderately-slow (slow walk), moderate (jog), fast (run), super fast (presto/sprint), superfulously fast, prestissimo.  or, if a slow passage - refining dynamics and sound each time repeated.  counting more and more accurately.  you can see how far you can divide each beat (beyond 1 and 2 and...)  or even (1 'e' and 'a' 2 'e' and 'a') to  (su -gar -coa-ted- can-dy can give you a d d)