Where can I learn about...

[steve jones]

... compositional techniques and styles?

I have a reasonable knowledge of theory, and Im familiar with the work of the major composers.

But I know very little about how they actually wrote music. Take Bach for example, I understand that his music is mostly contrapunctal, and I have a rough knowledge of the 'rules' regarding this type of music. But I dont know how he came up with phrases, structures etc.

I know very little about 'form' aswell, so the major significance of sonata forum eludes me.

Id really appreciate it someone could point me in the direction of some good reading. Have a few books, mainly on 20th century composition and orchestration. But I really want to go back to the start and build my knowledge up from there. At the moment, my knowledge is too 'patchy'.

Thanks all!

Steve Jones

[steve jones]

...

[pianistimo]

there's some site called www.pluto.org or something  and i found this site off of that one  https://solomonsmusic.net/theory.htm   hope it helps!  will look for the first site.  still  looking but found this one, too:
https://library.music.indiana.edu/music_resources   can add /composer.html or /composit.html

[rc]

I know very little about 'form' aswell, so the major significance of sonata forum eludes me.

I never fully understood sonata form until I learned one, have you learned to play any sonatas? I'll give a quick, general overview:

The first part is called the exposition, where the composer will 'throw out' a bunch of different musical ideas (themes). At some point the key will modulate (usually to the dominant, or the relative major in a minor-key composition), this creates a sort of tension of keys because the section isn't ending on the tonic (the concept of tonality). This section will repeat, which is useful to re-hear the themes (establish familiarity) and also to know the boundaries (you know where the end of the exposition is when you hear it go back to the beginning).

Then, the development is where the composer will venture through different keys using material from the exposition, and they'll do all kinds of nifty things with the themes here. Pay attention to what familiar themes from the exposition the development is derived from... The development is followed by the 'recapitulation', where the material from the exposition is played, this time all in the tonic key (which acts to release the tonal tension).

That's a pretty condensed explaination , I'd be happy to try and clarify any questions. A good book for understanding sonata form is Charles Rosen's 'The Classical Style'. Heavy reading, but if you take the time to understand what he says there's a lot to be learned.

It's very useful to always try to the best of your knowledge to understand how the composer put together the pieces, ask your teacher as well. After coming to a grasp of something at the piano, it's also beneficial to listen for these things on recordings.

Id really appreciate it someone could point me in the direction of some good reading. Have a few books, mainly on 20th century composition and orchestration. But I really want to go back to the start and build my knowledge up from there. At the moment, my knowledge is too 'patchy'.

Here're two links I've held onto:

Counterpoint - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16342/16342-h/16342-h.htm
Practical guide to musical composition - https://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk/

[steve jones]

Great, thanks guys! Keep em coming 

Also, any book titles would be just as welcome

[steve jones]

RC,

Yeah, I do have a very basic knowledge of the sonata form. I mean, you can always hear the 'recapitulation' in Beethoven sonatas, but I get hazy of the 'development' - I usually end up thinking 'how the hell is that and development of that'   

You know what they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

[rc]

RC,

Yeah, I do have a very basic knowledge of the sonata form. I mean, you can always hear the 'recapitulation' in Beethoven sonatas, but I get hazy of the 'development' - I usually end up thinking 'how the hell is that and development of that'   

You know what they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

hahah, yeah, it's not always easy to see exactly where something came from. It's nice to know that the idea of 'sonata form' is just a guideline and that each is a different beast. The composers likely weren't thinking much of 'sonata form', it was an assumed aesthetic of the time. Sonata form is the natural progress of tonality, which itself came out of equal temperament (couldn't modulate very far in earlier tuning systems).

Anyways, back on topic .

I know what you mean, sometimes the composers could be pretty creative with their developments. Sometimes it will be almost a literal transposition of a theme, sometimes they will combine themes, change the texture, take a motif from a theme and go off in a totally different direction, sometimes the unity will be more rhythmic than melodic. With the great composers, there's always some reason they put the notes as they are.

Are you looking to compose, or to have a deeper understanding of others works? For books, the public library would be a good place to look around. I found a few interesting books geared towards beginning composing that were a lot of fun, wish I could remember what they were called...

I haven't gone through everything in that second link I gave, but on a quick skim it looked very concise and geared to be useful in getting started, though it looks like you might have to come up with your own excercises in application of the ideas. I should really make more time to go through these things myself

[steve jones]

Yeah, that second link looked great! Kind of like the CC book but for composition.

Actually, I would like to chance my arm at composition. I did a little at uni but nothing much really. For now Im looking to expand my knowledge so that I can analyse the literature and learn from it. Then if I get into composition from there it will be a more natural progression.

Thanks again for the advice, plenty to read!

[rc]

Yeah, that second link looked great! Kind of like the CC book but for composition.

Actually, I would like to chance my arm at composition. I did a little at uni but nothing much really. For now Im looking to expand my knowledge so that I can analyse the literature and learn from it. Then if I get into composition from there it will be a more natural progression.

Thanks again for the advice, plenty to read!

I'm very interested in composition too, and was earlier today thinking along the lines of getting around to learning composition later down the road (When I'm more skilled @ the piano)... But I'm thinking now, why not just get into it? and learn to compose along with whatever else is going on. There's no reason our beginning efforts have to be masterpieces, but it could be fun and very educational.

If anything, composition and analysis could inform each other...