teh ultimet technique competition repertoire

[stevie]

lets say we could get all the pianists with the best techniques to join 1 competition, with one round(you can do multiple rounds if you wish, pozzibl;y) in order to ascertain whom has the greatest technique of all, all round, and in specific feats of technique.

choose the pieces you would desire to hear them play in order to compare their techniques ideally.

lets start this off by it being a single hour recital, randomly.

[brahmsian]

Reger-Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Telemann
Godowsky-Etude No. 4 "Ignis Fatuus"
               -Etude No. 25 in A flat major
Hamelin- Triple Etude (all 3 A minor Chopin etudes contrapuntally combined)             
Cziffra-Flight of the Bumblebee Transcription
Stravinsky- Petrouchka
Alkan- 3rd movement Concerto for Solo Piano

[countchocula]

Liszt: Feux Follets, Gnomenreigen
Chopin: Etudes in thirds, in sixths, and op.10 no.2
Schubert-Liszt: Erlking
Schumann: Toccata

The pieces I listed above are good general tests of just raw technique.
I would not include Godowsky Etudes, Alkan, Islamey, or Gaspard -
because, as hard as they sound, they can be pretty well-mastered by any gifted conservatory pianist after some weeks of very hard work and practice.  They are thickly textured, alot of notes and fingerings to memorize, but not that athletically difficult.  They are more of the "mentally challenging" variety.
But an awesome performance of Feux Follets (ala Kissin), or Op.10 no.2 is to be greatly appreciated.  Or the opening octaves of Erlking.
Just raw, naked technique.

[stevie]

your point being that most any pianist can learn those works, to merely coordinate those notes and play those pieces isnt as much of a technical challenge as , say, playing 10/2 in just over a minute.

then yes, in an atheletic way, that is true, but those pieces arent necesarily atheletically any less challenging than the others, and maybe even moreso - if played at a 'competitive' tempo.

alkan's music is generally very difficult, lots of different techniques involved, and especially unique in his music's difficulty is sheer endurance and keeping up a tempo during the onslaughts.

godowsky's chopin studies should UNDOUBTEDLY be included, because i completely disagree that these arent atheletically demanding, you are maybe just used to hamelin's 'lazy' recordings.
the godowsky studies are completely unique and revolutionary in their use of the left hand, they demand intense use of fingers and figurations that had never been used before.

ask a pianist to play - the LH 10/2 10/4 and 10/12, as rapidly as possible and with utmost control, and you will have a complete assesment of their left hand technical capibilities, except maybe sustained octaves(which can be assessed in other repertoire..)

things like islamey and alkan's 39/10 are very difficult all-round technique tests, and especially good for assesing raw endurance of the player's complete mechanism, if played at a 'competitive' tempo

[g_s_223]

The Reger/Telemann really isn't that difficult IMO, it is much the same level as the Brahms/Handel; the Reger/Bach variations are harder. If you want a tricky set in this general style, the Brahms/Paganini are the ones.

[rob47]

what about some of Messiaen's "20 Peep tha Boy JC thangz". they have some original technical passages in them

[brahmsian]

The Reger/Telemann really isn't that difficult IMO, it is much the same level as the Brahms/Handel; the Reger/Bach variations are harder. If you want a tricky set in this general style, the Brahms/Paganini are the ones.

Good call. I was trying to think of a hard set of variations and the Reger/Telemann were the first that popped into my head. Didn't even think of Brahms.

[pianistimo]

i thought that was what competitions were about in general anyway.  i'd have a much milder form of a competition.  i'd leave the choices totally open and whatever they wanted to play, they could.  BUT, they'd have to play a piano concerto, too.  and, be able to - at a moments notice, explain 15 minutes worth of stuff about their program.  to me, that's harder than the program.  it's technique of the head.

you know what probably teaches musicians better than competitions?  i think it's having a chance to conduct an orchestra.  brute strength is nothing without a brain (although many really good pianists have both).  learning to sight read a duet version piano concerto is pretty difficult too and requires some good sight-reading skills.  i think i'd add that.  everyone would have to be the 'orchestra' for someone else.

[henrah]

Gnomenreigen would be a must for me, the ability to sing out the melody of the acciaccatura's in the beginning and keep a steady repeated note in the middle section would be a factor in 'technique', and also the way they decide to phrase it.

Also Hamelin's transcription of Rossini's La Danza. And Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuexes just to hear it

[g_s_223]

Hmmm.

But aren't there too many pianists already with (over)developed techniques?

Don't we really want *artists* who have something original to say, e.g. Pletnev, von Eckardstein?

[stevie]

Hmmm.

But aren't there too many pianists already with (over)developed techniques?

Don't we really want *artists* who have something original to say, e.g. Pletnev, von Eckardstein?

no

[contrapunctus]

Hmm, I think we should give them easy stuff to play like some Chopin Nocturns, Bach Fantasias, Mozart Sonatas, etc. I think it requires a much better technique to play easy and slow pieces in new and creative ways than to just play fast.

[stevie]

Hmm, I think we should give them easy stuff to play like some Chopin Nocturns, Bach Fantasias, Mozart Sonatas, etc. I think it requires a much better technique to play easy and slow pieces in new and creative ways, then to just play fast.

you think wrong

[panic]

Problem with a competition like this is that there's the question of whether would you give the gold medal to a guy who has the best technique but plays like a robot, if indeed those were the circumstances. Or theoretically, a literal robot could win this one a la Deep Blue beating Barry Kasparov in chess. There's a certain point at which I believe the purpose of a good technique is just to bring out the artistry in the music, I won't say to give way to artistic ability but to sacrifice being the most important thing and to join hand in hand with musicality. So choose a piece that's both technically and artistically difficult, and knock off people that don't use their technique to further their artistry. The best of Alkan might do well, or one or both of the Rachmaninoff sonatas. It might do well to choose long pieces, since some of the shorter ones are basically pure technique and don't give the pianist much chance to show musicality.

[avetma]

I would like to hear Consolation no3 by Hamelin or any other superb technician.

[steinwaymodeld]

Problem with a competition like this is that there's the question of whether would you give the gold medal to a guy who has the best technique but plays like a robot, if indeed those were the circumstances. Or theoretically, a literal robot could win this one a la Deep Blue beating Barry Kasparov in chess. There's a certain point at which I believe the purpose of a good technique is just to bring out the artistry in the music, I won't say to give way to artistic ability but to sacrifice being the most important thing and to join hand in hand with musicality. So choose a piece that's both technically and artistically difficult, and knock off people that don't use their technique to further their artistry. The best of Alkan might do well, or one or both of the Rachmaninoff sonatas. It might do well to choose long pieces, since some of the shorter ones are basically pure technique and don't give the pianist much chance to show musicality.

mus*cality is a negative element in this competition
anyone who shows any hint of mus*cality will be punished with severe deduction of points.

[pita bread]

mus*cality is a negative element in this competition
anyone who shows any hint of mus*cality will be punished with severe deduction of points.

Thou shalt recieveth a score lower than Mei-Ting's.

[countchocula]

mus*cality is a negative element in this competition
anyone who shows any hint of mus*cality will be punished with severe deduction of points.

Can we please refer to it as the "m" word from now on?
It is such an ugly word, after all...

[BoliverAllmon]

brahms paganinni both books
ligeti etude complete set

[rimv2]

Thou shalt recieveth a score lower than Mei-Ting's.

Ewwwwwwwwwww

Make them play

schumann's g minor sonata

Chopin 10-4

Liszt Dante

Beethoven 106 109 110 and 111 (2nd mvmt prestississmo)

1838 version of all liszt paganini etudes

All piece must be performer blindfolded and AFAP

Extra points for sitting at a random interval up or down from the middle of the piano.

Even more extra points for performing the pieces while facing backwards

[pita bread]

brahms paganinni both books
ligeti etude complete set

Finally, you make a good contribution.

[musicsdarkangel]

Liszt - La Campanella
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
Chopin - op 25 etudes
Balakiriev - Islamey
Liszt - Orage
Barber - fugue
(from his Sonata)

[jason2711]

and the hour long recital must be done in under 45 minutes!

[stevie]

Sly says:
ok for your best technique comp
Sly says:
here is my reply
Sly says:
65 Minute Solo Programme with Concerto Final:

Alkan Etude de Concert "Le Preux" Op. 17 (Octaves)
Xenakis Evryali (Dense chords and memorization)
Xenakis "Herma"- Musique Symbolique (Hand Independance and Rhythm)
Finnissy all.fall.down. (Leaps and Parallel/Symmetrical Movement Oscillation)
Finnissy Solo Piano Concerto No. 4 (Hand Speed)
Scriabin Sonata No. 6 (Chord Voicing)
Cage Etudes Australes Nos. 6 and 44 (Grated Action)
Fox Etude No. 11 "Double Notes" (Double Notes)
Fox Etude No. 24 "Toccata Tremeloso" (Trills and Tremelos)


Xenakis Synaphai (Finger Dexterity, Finger Speed, Finger Independance, Rhythms, Leaps, Stretches, Gruppandi, Endurance)

[nanabush]

Oh gaws!  The hamelin-rossini etude, look at the sheet music, amazing technique work for both hands...

-Double notes prety much the entire piece for right hand, ever changing double note patterns.
-Double notes for left hand, at one point double notes going different direction for both hands
-Fast octaves for left hand
-Crazy leaps for both hand
-Glissandi?  if that counts as a technique??
-Leaping chords in right hand
-Legatos at some points
-Left hand at one point:  can't explain, but very similar to Chopin etude A flat op 10, same time, but different type of rhythm, left hand is like 123,123,123, right hand is 121,212,121

[BoliverAllmon]

Finally, you make a good contribution.

you mean my other stuff is crap? or are you saying I just suck? LOL

[Kassaa]

you mean my other stuff is crap? or are you saying I just suck? LOL

I think he means that you aren't contributing a lot to the sp33d 'n F4ry-scene. (Who cares about that anyway?)

[tompilk]

how about the OC played in under 4 hours?
Tom

[elevateme]

all the sorabji studies. simple as that.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think he means that you aren't contributing a lot to the sp33d 'n F4ry-scene. (Who cares about that anyway?)

not me.

[JCarey]

all the sorabji studies. simple as that.

[pita bread]

The Prokofiev Piano Concerto #2 needs to be involved somehow.

[mike_lang]

How about this:

Liszt - Reminiscences de Don Juan
Carl Vine Sonata
Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
Beethoven - Hammerklavier
Prokofiev - 2nd Piano Concerto

Or parts of that, since it's well over the hour limit.

[presto agitato]

As simple as this:

First Part: Well Tempered Clavier (Book Number One)

Intermission

Second Part: Chopin - Etudes Op 10 and 25

That would be amazing recital.

[stevie]

As simple as this:

First Part: Well Tempered Clavier (Book Number One)

Intermission

Second Part: Chopin - Etudes Op 10 and 25

That would be amazing recital.

first part = a bit weak

[henrah]

Liszt etudes and Chopin etudes, played back-to-back without an interval.

[mike_lang]

I thought Kobrin's was pretty good:

Rachmaninoff Op. 33 Etudes
Brahms Paganini Variations
Chopin Nocturne in B Major, Op 9 no 3
Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 2

[tompilk]

Liszt etudes and Chopin etudes, played back-to-back without an interval.

and the ligetti and lyapunov and rachmaninov ones as encores then the Alkan op 39... complete...
Tom

[soliloquy]

all the sorabji studies. simple as that.

How bout all the music in the world, played 10 times, blindfolded, with oven mitts on while midgets prod you with sottering irons, played in <2"?

I think we should leave it at a realistic level plz.  Otherwise the correct answer would be:

Barlow Cogluotobusletmesi
Barrett Tract
Bussotti Pour Clavier
Finnissy all.fall.down.
Finnissy Solo Concerto No. 4
Hoban When the Panting Starts
Scelsi Action Music
Xenakis Evryali
Xenakis "Herma"- Musique Symbolique


That's about 2 hours, which is about as long as a lot of other suggestions.

[steve jones]

Ewwwwwwwwwww

Make them play

schumann's g minor sonata

Chopin 10-4

Liszt Dante

Beethoven 106 109 110 and 111 (2nd mvmt prestississmo)

1838 version of all liszt paganini etudes

All piece must be performer blindfolded and AFAP

Extra points for sitting at a random interval up or down from the middle of the piano.

Even more extra points for performing the pieces while facing backwards

I reckon they should get a bonus for Gould style vocalisations 

As for pieces, what about the Liszt T' Etudes? They seem to be a pretty rigourous technique workout. Or even the Don Juan?

SJ

[cloches_de_geneve]

Posted by: presto agitato
As simple as this:

First Part: Well Tempered Clavier (Book Number One)

Intermission

Second Part: Chopin - Etudes Op 10 and 25

That would be amazing recital.

first part = a bit weak

I don't think the first part (WTC 1) is weak at all. Richter once said that mastering the WTC was the most difficult pianistic challenge of his life -- later, everything else seemed easy in comparison.

Thus, I concur with this being an extremely ambitious, difficult and impressive program.

Perhaps it would be enough to play Chopin op. 25, and, instead of playing op. 10, put Hammerklavier or any other of the taxing Beethoven Sonatas into the program.