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Topic: Which is better ....help ASAP!  (Read 3144 times)

Offline lagin

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Which is better ....help ASAP!
on: February 24, 2006, 09:32:09 PM
Okay everyone,
Decision time:

Do I trade my 25 year old scruffy Yamaha 5'7 G2, plus perhaps $1,000 - $2,000 for a 5 year old Yamaha 5'3 C1 in perfect condition?  
 
GOOD:
1. Because it will cost 3,000 + to refinish mine
2. Because I want a real fighter in terms of key action, and the C series is suppost to be like that (My G2 is so light touched it's not even funny!)
3. A smaller piano would fit better in our house
4. Not too important, but the new one has a sostenuto pedal which I could use instead of just pretending I have one

BAD:
1. I am buying it over the internet from across the country, though from a refinisher who will ship it here, so not just some "joe"
2. I'm concerned that going from 5'7 to 5'3 will sound poorer??
3. I don't get to play it first, and I love the sound of the one I have right now
4. I have to sell this one first which is just a pain


So........What do I do?  My main concern is do all the C series really have a much harder touch which I need, because my performance and exam pianos sure do?  And the size smaller......big deal?  yes no?

Help!  THanks  (ASAP, too please)
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline Axtremus

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #1 on: February 24, 2006, 10:23:41 PM
lagin,

What's your piano proficiency level?
(What "grade" you're working on, or what pieces are you playing these days?)

Offline iumonito

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #2 on: February 24, 2006, 10:44:48 PM
DO not trade a piano you love the sound of and that is bigger for a smaller/sight-unseen piano from a far away seller.

That's my take on that.

What you perceive to be a light action may be the combination of unvoiced hammers and maybe a poorly regulated action.  If the action is in fact too light, I would say the best place where to add some mass is to the hammers, rather than remove it from the keys (the usual quick-fix is to remove counterbalance weight from the keys, but adding mass to the hammers aids sound production, which lighter keys doesn't).
Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano.  :)

Offline lagin

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #3 on: February 24, 2006, 11:08:58 PM
I'm working on stuff like the Pathetique sonata right now, but this summer I will start working on my performer's degree (ARCT).  So stuff like Rachmaninoff's Prelude in g minor, op. 23 no. 5, Chopin's nocturne in c sharp minor. op. 27, no. 1, Mozart's K311 in D Major, Barber excursions no. 3 and 4, and some other stuff by Bach, and modern composer Morel.  Why do you ask?

Iumonito, I just had a my tuner here.  She regulated my piano, moved the hammers, the whole works.  Actually she found that one adjustment had already BEEN made, so I'd hate to see how light it was BEFORE that!  We were thinking of putting weights on the keys though.  (My piano is still REALLY scuffy, and scratched, and chipped.......... which is a big factor in changing).  Do you really think it's dangerous to take a piano that I've never played?  I mean if it's a fairly new Yamaha (and I've NEVER played a yamaha I DIDN"T like!), then wouldn't it still have the type of sound I love?  I mean, it's not as finicky as a violin, or is it?  The big thing is the action.  Does anyone know if all C series pianos have the same action make, but just different string lengths?  A yamaha dealer told me this, but I don't believe everything salesmen tell me.   ??
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline iumonito

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #4 on: February 25, 2006, 01:04:14 AM
I am no tech, so check, but to make the piano heavier one removes weight from the keys, not the oposite.  Again, I suggest you investigate adding weight to the hammers instead.

I have played many a ghastly Yamaha.  Generally I would say do not buy sight unseen, and I would particularly say that about a used Yamaha.

...and BTW, the biggie is not the action.  The biggie are the hammers.  I assume you will have it at least checked by a tech there, to check obvious stuff like cracked soundboards and bridges, water or smoke damage and really serious stuff like that.

Lovely repertoire, by the way.
Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano.  :)

Offline lagin

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #5 on: February 25, 2006, 02:30:34 AM
Your advice is probably wise, but I'm still torn with regards of what to do......  If anyone wants to have a look at the one I"m concidering, it's at www.centralnorthpiano.com   It's the only black one.  You can click on it for a bigger image.
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline Axtremus

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #6 on: February 25, 2006, 03:52:06 AM
In my experience, the C-series' actions actually feel "lighter" compared to a lot of others like Kawai RX-series or Steinway grands. The only other grands that feel even "lighter" than C-series would be Boesendorfers and August Foersters -- but you will not find any of these in your ARCT exam.

It seems you've explored tweaking options with your piano technicians. Changing hammers will cost you $1k~$2k after you factor in all the regulation work that has to be done after the new hammers are put in. And I really don't like the idea of getting a piano without playing it first. (The benefit I see about getting the newer C1 is not to get a heavy action, but a potentially more "even" action, but that assumes your current piano's action is "not as even" -- a common problem with old, neglected pianos... but if you say you've had a tech regulated your piano, this would likely not apply to you.)

A couple of no-cost/low-cost ideas you can consider in the mean time:

Do you practice with the piano lid open or closed? You can try some psychoacoustic trick like playing with the lid fully closed (take music rack out and put it on top of piano so you can still read the score). If your piano is sitting on hardwood floor, put rugs and other sound-absorbant soft stuff under it. (Or have the piano tech voice the piano down if you want to go that far, but voicing will cost you money.)

The idea is to tone down your piano so that you will instictively try to compensate by playing harder just to get it to the dynamic levels you intend to achieve.

Just a thought. Good luck with your study.

Offline lagin

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #7 on: February 25, 2006, 04:05:55 AM
Okay, I'm beginning to agree with you all.  Buying online would be pretty foolish after all.  So here's my next question.  Do I:

A.  Stay with my scruffy 5'7 G2 that plays fine, but is much too light, and thus weight the keys?

B.  Go to a C1 and ask my parents to spend $8,000 - $9,000 to upgrade to a new one, which of course wouldn't be scruffy, haha!  But it would only be a 5'3 instead of 5'7

C.  Not likely to happen, but actually get a C2 5'8 for like $12,000 more, ouch!

I'm thinking I should just stay with ol' scruffy.  Does anyone actually know the differences between G2 and C2?  And C1 and C2?  If you did, that would be fantastic if you'ld share!

I want to have a piano that I'm going to keep and use forever, so I wanted a good one.  But on the other hand, for the next three years while I finish grade 10, and do two ARCTs (performer's and teacher's)  I'll be playing hard, but then what?  I teach on my upright downstairs in the studio, so the grand would be left purely for my enjoyment and for perhaps learning the odd piece to perform, after my degrees are done.  Do I really need a "conservatory" level piano for that or is my G2 (which is suppost to be top of the line "recreational" piano) just fine then?  So many people don't even have a grand, and I feel privileged just to own one, so if it's not a huge deal of difference between the two (G and C), then perhaps I should just be content with what I already have.  I can spend the rest of my life "upgrading", but I want to find a piano that I will be satisfied with, and that is practical, (not absorbant), for what I use it for.  The C1 really appealed to me because it is smaller, and right now there is first the piano, then a living room, so smaller would be better.  But I don't want it to sound "dead" compared to the one I have because then I'll just be wishing I'd kept mr. scruffy.  Basically I'm confused right now, lol!  But at least I know I won't buy online thanks to you guys! 
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline iumonito

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #8 on: February 25, 2006, 05:16:00 AM
OK.   I like this question better.

I would say stay with the piano you have right now until you can afford a really good one.  Use the time to explore several brands, develop your taste and decide which is the piano you want to have 15 of the next 20 years.

For starters, I think you should consider pianos that are 6 to 7 feet long if it is at all possible to fit them in.  Think new or rebuilt, as most used pianos will require work and imagination (which, if so inclined, you can cultivate with your current piano, which is certainly worth tweaking).  I like light action, so I like to recommend August Foerster.  If you like something with more resistance, Kawai RX and of course Shigeru Kawai are very good pianos.

There are lovely European pianos that should also be in the list.  Pertoff and Estonia among the less expensive, and Grotrian and of course Bluthner (including the budget lines Haessler and Irmler) among the pricier ones.

There are many more brands, but these are the ones I would recommend to whetter your piano palate.

A reasonable budget starts around US$15,000.  $35,000 buys you a dream piano, so I would say refuse to pay more than $35K (which leaves out the really expensive ones, like Fazioli, Bosendorfer and Bechstein -- and Bluthners for that matter).
Money does not make happiness, but it can buy you a piano.  :)

Offline Axtremus

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #9 on: February 26, 2006, 04:26:37 AM
It's a constant struggle for frugal musicians to afford pricey instruments that are worthy of their art. Don't worry. You're not alone. ;)

Whether to get your parents to spend the extra buck$ is between you and your parents. So I'll stay out of that one. ;)

Between the G2 and the C2, I think the C2 has what's called a "duplex scale" that and the G2 does not. But "duplex scale" is not necessarily a "good thing." It all comes down to whether you like the sound. So, if you want to compare, go listen to a C2 and see if you like the sound better. C1 is just smaller than the C2, otherwise, quite similar.

Exploring a new C1 is OK, just make sure you play it first and confirm for yourself that it is something you deem acceptable. Yamaha also has the GC1 which is the same size as the C1, but cheaper with some differences in design and material used. Try that too, especially if the budget is really tight. Personally, I have no problem with the C1/GC1's action, it's tone that I'd suggest that you pay attentoin too. When you go from a 5'7" to a 5'3", the bass would usually get weaker (mid-range and treble should be OK). So pay attention to the bass when you try out the C1/GC1. If you find the bass acceptable, then all is well.

At the level you're playing, you do not need any Internet stranger to tell you which piano you should buy -- you should have the confidence that you'd know quite instinctively whether a piano will be "good enough" for you once you spend 20~30 minutes playing on it seriously (hopefully without the salesperson keep interrupting). So what's mentioned below is just a starting point -- you really need to play the piano before you buy.

Even assuming a small budget (sub-$10k), a few things you can keep your eyes out for:[list=1]
  • Used "recent vintage" Yamaha C2, Kawai RX-2 or Kawai KG-2 or larger (shoot for something less than, say, 10~15 years old); If you get up to a C3, so much the better
  • Used Baldwin grand (perhaps model L or larger)

With used pianos, condition is king -- first, trust you own ears and your own fingers, do not buy one without playing it first. Chances are good that you might find sellers who tell you "the piano will get better after it gets tuned/regulated/voiced/whatever" -- do not take their words for it, let them do the tuning/regulation/voicing/whatever and then you go play it again before deciding whether the piano is "good enough" for you.

The key is to resist the temptation to buy a piano you instinctively know to be "not good enough" just because it has a low price tag, and be patient.

Then, after you've found a used piano you really like, just to be careful, I'd say spend a little money to hire an independent piano technician to help you examine the piano before you buy ("independent" as in one with no conflict of interest with the seller; your current technician may be able to help). The concept is similar to getting an independent auto mechanic to help you check out a used car before you buy.

Forget about the European/Eastern European pianos. Unless you're going to spend $18k~$20k and up, I just don't see them as being practical for you. It will be an entirely separate "pros and cons" discussion if your budget do go up that high.

Good luck.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #10 on: February 26, 2006, 05:18:46 AM
interesting about the weighted hammers having more to do with tone production.  i REALLY like my kawaii upright, and imagine that the kawaii grands are good - and sound good - and are priced well.  you might look into estate sales to get one that's a few years old and just used for furniture or something.  don't look for sales at colleges (practice pianos) because they're useless when played.  it's just like too much mileage on a car.  you want something rarely played and in pretty good condition - despite the years.  AND - larger, as someone else pointed out.  then, you get your money's worth in recording sound.

Offline gruffalo

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #11 on: February 26, 2006, 09:08:27 AM
i think, for home practice purposes, key touch (weight and eveness) is more important than sound. instead of buying a more expensive upright, i just had a technician to weighten the keys and it is excellent. i would really consider you just getting a technician  to weighten the keys. if your current piano is not going to do well with weightened keys, i (personally if i had the money) would go for the 5'3 with better key action. but if you can sort your piano out with a technician, i would really recommend it.

Offline Bob

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #12 on: February 26, 2006, 12:59:48 PM
I wouln't spend that much money without playing the instrument.  Take a trip out there if it's not close buy.

Are they pressuring you?  "Another buyer is interested!"   It sounds like you want the new piano, and it sounds better written out, but I would need to actually play it before deciding. 

Do you have anything to lose by waiting?

Is that the only technician who has given you advice on your piano?
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline lagin

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #13 on: February 26, 2006, 03:04:05 PM
Hey everyone, thanks for the continued responses.
No Bob, it is VERY far away, about a weeks drive or an $800 flight and 2 days.  He is not pressuring me at all.  In fact, I wish he'ld hurry up and email me back.  He just said it was like new, and gave me some info, then said, "Let me know what you decide."  He even has a way to ship it to me (I asked).  I posted the link a few posts back.  He sounds very legit.  The salespeople in the stores nearby are the pressuring ones, but their pianos are also 6 to 12 thousand dollars more than buying this used one.  I'm going to go play a C1 this Friday to see about the bass sound.  That's why I was wondering if I really needed to play each one, or just one, and the other C1s would be similar enough??

I actually do need to either refinish mine and weight the key ($4,000ish), or just trade in.  I was thinking I might not mind a smaller piano, because I actually never play with my 5'7 lid open cause it's really loud!  So it's only the tone quality I was concerned about.  Space wise, and volume wise, I actually want a smaller one.  I wasn't sure if 5'3 was so small, though, that it would resemble a good upright?  Does anyone know?
As far as getting one soon, the sooner the hetter.  On the piano I have right now, I can play the Pathetique sonata, first movement, along with the other 30 minutes of my repertoire, COLD!  My upright has more fight, and it's making me insane!  I can't even play the first page cold on my teacher's piano.
Thanks,
lagin
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline kamike

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #14 on: February 26, 2006, 06:14:26 PM
No disagrees that you deserve/want/need a better piano.  But please resist the temptation to impulsively buy another piano without at least playing it and playing others for comparison.  If you run out and buy, sight-unseen, chances are you will regret this for a very long time.

My opinion is that it's probably not worth spending thousands to "fix" your current piano.  However, I would bet a fair amount that, with some time and searching, you can find a better piano for the money, one that meets your criteria, and one that you'd be happy with for many years.

Offline lagin

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #15 on: February 27, 2006, 03:23:40 AM
Let's play a game :D!

No, seriously, I was wondering if I'm after a stiff action, are Kawaii's my best bet?  I heard Yamaha's had a rather medium touch to them.  I don't know any stores that sell Kawaii grands.............  Ack, my city doesn't even sell grands - it's so small!  I have to travel an hour away just to find a couple stores that do.  I'm limited here guys.
Christians aren't perfect; just forgiven.

Offline tompilk

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Re: Which is better ....help ASAP!
Reply #16 on: March 04, 2006, 08:14:56 PM
Is it only between a C1 and G2? I was looking at a C1 and shopped around a bit. I was taken in by a G2, but I wanted more. So I spent several weeks looking around Piano warehouses everywhere and I found a Yamaha G5, only 5 years old, that was in perfect condition - hardly used. Amazing sound, and really, you want a big a piano as possible. It's 6"6' and Im very pleased with it - and i spent about $7000 less than on the C1. Don't limit yourself and spend lots of time trying out pianos... until you find one you like.. I love th sound of mine, but i suppose the touch is quite light...i could do with a bit more.. can tuners/technicians change the touch?
Thanks,
Tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas
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