Christians and Catholics

[mycrabface]

I have nothing against them, but why are they at war with each other?

[rob47]

I am also curious.  I am supposedly catholic and used to consider my values the same as christians....but I'm not sure anymore.  Twinklefingers - and old user here - had a quote in his signature saying "Catholics are CHristians but misled" or something.  This really only serves the purpose of antagonizing me....to quote axel rose, "You want to antagonize me? antagonize me (expletive), get in the ring (expletive) and I'll kick your (expletive) little (expletive)" It is true that catholicism is largely responsible for the comforable lifestlye many of these 'christians' (and the rest o the 'western world') live today. (Education etc.) Furthermore, is it not incredibly un-christian to try and belittle someone, or make yourself seem more important or whatever that moron was trying to do with that comment?

Seriously though I'm friends with many many christians and until I came to the forum I wasn't aware people actually interpreted the old testament as literal hisotrically accuarte accounts. I'm curious, not all Christians do this right? just the puritains?

thanks
rob

[alzado]

Well, heck, I am not sure Christians and Catholics are fighting each other.

For the record, Catholics are Christians.  So are Protestants.  I myself am a Catholic of rather liberal persuasion.

I do feel that both Catholics and Protestants are capable of enshrining a lot of foolishness -- or worse -- into their creeds and canons.

I personally was very mortified by the pedophilia scandal recently publicized among the Catholic clergy.  I would have been more forgiving of this behavior if I believed the church leadership had responded early in this scandal in a prompt and effective way.  Now, when the horse is out of the barn already, the church leaders finally appear to have put some very effective policies in place.

There are some pretty foolish or even unpleasant beliefs among some Protestant groups, also. 

[timothy42b]

Catholics are part of one of the four main groupings of Christians (and roughly 110 denominations.)

Modern Roman Catholics derive from the original church and have maintained a kind of continuity for almost 2,000 years.  Of course over the years they have reviewed, reformed, and extended their theological concepts, as have all the other denominations that split from them.  

However certain groups of Protestant Christians (and in particular fundamentalist evangelical American churches) really don't consider any other denomination to be Christian at all, and maintain a rather exteme and vicious antagonism towards RCCs.  Why that is so I really don't understand.  It is quite unnecessary.  I consider choice of church more a matter of style than substance.  For example, I don't care for Baptist sermons so I attend an Episcopal church.  The average Baptist would be quite put off by the way we run our liturgy.  But both of us would probably agree on most elements of the Nicene Creed.  

We all worship the same God - you in your way, and..........I in His!  <g>

[pantonality]

There are some days when things are simply very interesting around here.

So now the question is Catholics vs. Christians. Well there's certainly a lot of history there and it's not just in Northern Ireland (oh what Troubles they've seen). So here's my 2 cents.

Up until the mid 1960s (would that be Pope John the XXIII?) many catholic churches strongly hinted that their parishoners not even set foot inside another church. There are still strong traditions around raising children in families where one partner is Catholic. So the Catholic church does still extend a practice of exclusion to as much degree as society will let them. However overall I would say that most Catholics are rather realistic, they're not particularly judgmental about nonCatholics, nor does the church actively promote such judgment. At least that's how things seem in the USA, it could be very different in Northern Ireland where there's a long history of economic discrimination by Protestants.

Most mainstream Protestant churches coexist well with RCs. They happily accept their castoffs (those who come in the door referring to themselves as recovering catholics), but they don't take public stands of opposition to the RCC nor make a big deal about theological differences.

Then there are Evangelical Christians, aka fundamentalists. I find it interesting that the evangelical movement grew out of Methodism and Congregationalism (among others), two sects which are now very much mainstream. Most evangelical denominations hold that the Bible is inerrant and is the divinely inspired word of God. This is fine as far as personal beliefs go, but (and now begins my editorial on the matter) unfortunately, that same we're right attitude tends to extend to judgment of others and surprisingly unchristian intolerance. However this matter has recently been written about by someone far more knowledgable than me so I'll just post a link.

https://www.beliefnet.com/story/150/story_15052_1.html

Steve

[jason2711]

Roman Catholics are a part of Christianity, in fact, at one stage, they were the only Christians (before the Orthodox Church split from them around the 8th century or so).

In Northern Ireland, there was a fear amongst many Protestants that most Roman Catholics supported the IRA and the Republic of Ireland in general, and were somehow instigating a rebellion of some kind.  This fear was reflected the Roman Catholics, who had been discrimated against by the Unionist (pro-Britain, mainly Protestant) government for decades, and so the two religions formed two separate communities.  Both were ignorant to what the other side were really like, and this is what escalated what was called 'the Troubles', and why it was so hard to find a ceasefire.  

Even today, the two main extreme parties on either side hold the most power.. the DUP (who are a very bigotted bunch... they're strong unionists) and Sinn Fein (Republicans... many of their leaders were former IRA terrorists, and may still in fact be so)

Politically, its not terribly stable, but there hasn't been much violence lately.  I think everyone's just getting sick of it.  My generation (or at least my friends... who I suppose are more educated that most... and less religious) are a lot more tolerant of people of any community than previous generations.  I think eventually people will realise that no matter what religion people are of, they're still humans.  Coming from a Protestant family, I get on just as well, if not better with Roman Catholics.

Many people don't even believe in the religion they claim to fight for... they just want an excuse to fight.  These days paramilitary organisations aren't about religious/political struggle or 'protecting their community' as they liked to claim.  They are basically the equivalent of the gangs one may find in the rest of the UK, USA, or most other countries.

I think I diverged a bit from the main topic of conversation, but I think most of the point stands  

[lagin]

Definition of a Christian:  One who has accepted that a). they are a sinner
b). Jesus died for their sins as payment  c). gratefully accepts the payment for that debt d). gives their life over to God, and thus ends up having a relationship with Him (meaning, they don't live with the "it's all about me and what I want" attitude anymore, but rather it's all about Him and what He wants).  The last one is the tough one.  People like Him to be Saviour, but they conveniently forget about the Lord part.

You can be Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, non-denominational, ect., or even not attend church like me , and still be a Christian.

On the other hand, you can also be a Catholic, and not a Christian.

Why are they fighting?  Like in Ireland you mean?  Probably because they are both being pig headed

I will add though, that their are certain doctrinal Catholic traditions that cannot blend with Christianity.  Like, their reverance of Mary.  Respecting her, and admiring her is wonderful, but alot of Catholics pray to her, and that's bordering on the worshipping her line.  And God says in the Bible that He is the only One to be worshipped. 

In Catholics' defense I will add, that for example, Baptists say you must be baptised "full emersion" (meaning completely dunked) before you can be a "member" of that church.  For the record, "membership" is not even in the Bible!  They just want a tax break. (I was a Christian for years before I choose to be baptised anyway).

It basically comes down to, has the person met a, b, c, and d above.  If yes, then they are a Christian and have a relationship with God.  If no, then they are simply religious and have a faith.

[Mozartian]

On the other hand, you can also be a Catholic, and not a Christian.

I will add though, that their are certain doctrinal Catholic traditions that cannot blend with Christianity.  Like, their reverance of Mary.  Respecting her, and admiring her is wonderful, but alot of Catholics pray to her, and that's bordering on the worshipping her line.  And God says in the Bible that He is the only One to be worshipped. 

I'm sorry, but you've been misinformed.

Catholics do not worship Mary, they pray to her asking her to intercede for them with God. You know how Christians ask eachother to pray for eachother? It's on the same premises.

A Catholic believes that those in heaven are also part of the Church, and therefore pray (or "talk" or "ask") to them, asking for their help to serve God. So you see it's the same thing on a supernatural level.

[musik_man]

As far as I see it, Catholics have alot of mistaken beliefs regarding God.  Most of the real big ones have been corrected in the last century but there still is a way to go.

BTW as far as recognizing other denominations.  The Catholic Church only recently acknowledged(I think in Vatican II) that other denominations could be saved.

[gruffalo]

at the moment im tied between the two. I have been a Catholic, baptised etc, but i also attend Christian meetings/services. I find them both great, but i find that more of the people that attend the Christian services are more believing and more spiritual. i have prayed about it, and i now know that which i ever i do, its ok because; who is more right than someone who praises God?

the Catholics at my church dont like the Christian idea of people with guitars etc. but i distinctly remember verses from one of the Psalms saying :

Praise the Lord with loud sound,
Praise him with the lute and the harp,
Praise him with the tymbrals etc.

probably word order is a bit wrong, but thats what was in it. So i quite like the protestant way sometimes, but theres got to be a fine line between getting effected by music, and then getting affected by prayer. coz some people come out saying "yay the holy spirit came to me, i feel great" when it was really just a loud rock band that was playing well.

[pantonality]

at the moment im tied between the two. I have been a Catholic, baptised etc, but i also attend Christian meetings/services. I find them both great, but i find that more of the people that attend the Christian services are more believing and more spiritual. i have prayed about it, and i now know that which i ever i do, its ok because; who is more right than someone who praises God?

As a Protestant I must admit to being surprised by a few things during several visits to Catholic services. It seems Catholics don't sing hymns, they open the books, mumble a few words perhaps, but they don't sing. By comparison most Protestant denominations whether mainstream or evangelical sing with gusto and sometimes in 4 part harmony (at least until the organist uses an alternative harmonization). The other thing that surprised me is the stampede to the door during the last hymn. That would be totally unacceptable in most Protestant churches. So your point about spirituality has some validity based on my observations in 3 different RCCs on multiple occasions each.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think that both catholics and protestants have some problems with their religions. Remember religion is man made. Truth is God-made.  Some protestants tend to be paranoid about catholics. just read this website.

https://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0112/albertoindex.asp

this is a story about a former jesuit priest. The story is suppose to be true.

boliver

[gruffalo]

As a Protestant I must admit to being surprised by a few things during several visits to Catholic services. It seems Catholics don't sing hymns, they open the books, mumble a few words perhaps, but they don't sing. By comparison most Protestant denominations whether mainstream or evangelical sing with gusto and sometimes in 4 part harmony (at least until the organist uses an alternative harmonization). The other thing that surprised me is the stampede to the door during the last hymn. That would be totally unacceptable in most Protestant churches. So your point about spirituality has some validity based on my observations in 3 different RCCs on multiple occasions each.

Catholic churches do sing. i was in the London Oratory Schola (top UK choir) we sang mass everyweek at the Brompton Oratory (huge church). i think you just got one bad experience. how many Catholic churches did you go to? but yea, too much reading and reciting from the book. i believe prayer should be your own words, aswell as "our father" etc.

[pantonality]

Catholic churches do sing. i was in the London Oratory Schola (top UK choir) we sang mass everyweek at the Brompton Oratory (huge church). i think you just got one bad experience. how many Catholic churches did you go to? but yea, too much reading and reciting from the book. i believe prayer should be your own words, aswell as "our father" etc.

As I said in my original post 3 RCCs (you did read it didn't you?). I'm not talking about the choir, I'm talking about the congregation doing the singing. Most churches have a choir and there's nothing out of the ordinary in a choir doing the singing, even in a Catholic church. But if you've ever attended a Protestant service chances are you've heard a completely different level of involvement during the singing of hymns by the congregation (maybe not in the Church of England since it's practically Catholic anyway). Maybe the cathedrals have strong congregational singing, I don't know, but even rural Methodist churchs in my state with just 50 people attending service have strong singing by the congregation.

[Derek]

I don't think if you were to take any two people, one christian and one catholic, who were both deeply thoughtful people and religious in the TRUEST sense, that they would honestly have any problem with each other.

Disputes between denominations almost never have anything to do with what really matters.

[jason2711]

I don't think if you were to take any two people, one christian and one catholic, who were both deeply thoughtful people and religious in the TRUEST sense, that they would honestly have any problem with each other.

Disputes between denominations almost never have anything to do with what really matters.

very true

[gorbee natcase]

Perhaps you need to make a poll about what wars are religious based and those that which are not.

Isn't it strange that throughout history; death and suffering is because of peoples beliefs

VERY RELIGIOUS AND CARING DON'T YOU THINK

IRA, TALLIBAN, ALQUIEDA, HOLY WARS, HENRY THE 8TH, MARY QUEEN OF SCOTTS, OLIVER CROMMWELL BOSNIA COSOVO etcetcetcetcetc

[4tissimo]

My theological experiences over a long life confirm pantonality's impression that many church-goers of RCC & Protestant persuasion aren't all that musical when it comes to singing hymns or sacred music in general--either congregations or church choirs.  Mumbling aside, although I was raised as a Baptist, I directed a small RCC parish choir in Japan and one of the best, most musical things we ever did was sing Tom Lehrer's Vatican Rag for Fr. Clifford Stevens' birthday party.  The older I get and the closer I approach THE final exam, my take on life and religion is that it's ultimately a personal decision one must make with themselves and whom/whatever they hold sacred.  The mainstream clergy don't have a monopoly on divinity.

[4tissimo]

I read Bolivar's lengthy "graphic novel" comic book produced by Chick publications accusing the Jesuits of the Inquisition and just about everything bad associated with the RCC.  Was it Twain who said something like "There's a little bit of good in the worst of us and a little bit of bad in the best of us."?  I have a very dear RCC friend and my impression is that while she may well say Rosarys, she doesn't pray TO Mary, but to God.  As another poster said, two individuals, one Protestant, the other Catholic, who are thoughtful, tolerant persons discussing religion I suspect will quite likely have more in common than that on which to disagree.

[BoliverAllmon]

just to clarify, I am not saying I follow those comics. I just know that some people think that way.

[prometheus]

I don't think if you were to take any two people, one christian and one catholic, who were both deeply thoughtful people and religious in the TRUEST sense, that they would honestly have any problem with each other.

Disputes between denominations almost never have anything to do with what really matters.

The problem is when we are talking about two communities of people. Even if they are toughtful individuals this doesn't say anything about how they behave in a group.

[mycrabface]

Oh yes I forgot to mention earlier, I'm a christian, but am not against catholics. I came accross this issue as there is a chapter in one of my subjects about the hostility between protestants and catholics. Im my own opinion,  think the protestants were being a bit too mean. No offense to either party.

[musik_man]

just to clarify, I am not saying I follow those comics. I just know that some people think that way.

Those comics represent the belief of a tiny(almost non-existant) group.  I've never seen them referenced other than to show what an a$$ that guy is.

[BoliverAllmon]

Those comics represent the belief of a tiny(almost non-existant) group.  I've never seen them referenced other than to show what an a$$ that guy is.

sad but not so sure how true it is. go to www.biblemaster.com and you will see alot of people that feel the same way. I am not sure how tiny the group really is. hopefully it is still small. I was reading a book one time from www.antichristconspiracy.com (I think that was the place) and he basically says that if anyone tolerates the Catholic church they are following the devil and are going to go to Hell. YIKES!!!!

boliver

[alejo_90]

Ahh, who cares !! Let them kill themselves, they're just fighting for the title of the religion with the biggest amount of followers.
Personally, I don't have any religion, because I think religions are just a way of political power in our times. Their Ideas have been completely lost and misunderstood, and they've been used to manipulate millions of people. I do not have the intention to offend anyone with my statements, so please don't get pissed.

[pianowelsh]

I am with Boliver on this one the central important thing is relationship with Christ. The rest of the issues although not insignificant are not salvation issues. Its the same with all denominations there are traditions which are unbiblical which get in the way but true believers will always have Christ as the focus.

[mycrabface]

Theres this other thing, why are there soooo many types of christians? I mean like anglican, charismatic churches, so on. They have different beliefs right? Why? Which is the right one?

[prometheus]

I just have to laugh at the insanity of different christian movements criticizing each other. Until they start to use violence, then it becomes very sad.

Which is the right one? Are you kidding me?

[cfortunato]

Just the title, "Christians AND Catholics" shows that the author is accepting fundamentalist/evangelical categories, and assuming that are the norm.  Not only are Catholics Christians, they are easily the LARGEST Christian group in world.

However, an earlier poster said that they were once the only Christians, until the Orthodox split from them.  In reality, that was single church splitting in half, and you could just as easily say that the Orthodox were once the only Christians until the Catholics split from THEM.  Eastern Christianity was, in many ways, the norm in the early church.  All seven councils of the church that took place before 1054 took place in the East, not the West, and the Church centered around Constantinople more than Rome.  The Western World, except Rome, was largely viewed as missionary territory.  It is ALSO accurate to say that the Eastern Church never accepted the Supremacy of the Roman Bishop at ANY time.  Rome was always ONE of the most important Sees.  It was only thought of as the MOST important in the West.

Incidentally, the Copts and Assyrian Church of the East split earlier than the Eastern Orthodox.  The Assyrians at the end of the 4th Century  and the Council of Ephesus; and the Copts in 451 after the Council of Chalcedon.

[timothy42b]

Theres this other thing, why are there soooo many types of christians? I mean like anglican, charismatic churches, so on. They have different beliefs right? Why? Which is the right one?

There are people who would agree with you but they tend to be in the minority, thankfully.

The evangelical fundamentalists believe everyone not adhering blindly to their set of doctrines are going to hell.  Since there are a lot of possible interpretations, there can be a lot of denominations.  For them, yes, it is at least partly about having the right beliefs, but it is also a matter of style.

For moderates like myself, subtleties of belief beyond a few very basic principles are unimportant.  I attend the church I do because I like the preaching style, I like the music, and I like the approach to management and the type congregation that this church tends to attract.  It is striclty a matter of worship style.  There are many churches I could not stand, just like a hard rocker is not going to be found at a country music concert.  Those churches also likely have some doctrines I would think silly, but we would not consider condemning them for that. 

[cfortunato]

There are some real differences of belief, but nearly as many as you would given the vast number of denominations.  As the other poster said, most of the differences are matters of polity and and style.  This is especially true in Protestantism, where they don't define "The Church" as "The Denomination."  The vast majority of Christians believe in the statements of the Nicene and Apostle's Creed.

Major difference between groups and denominations are:

1)The Authority of the Bishop of Rome.

2) The Importance of Apostolic Sucession.

3) Whether Baptism is efficacious and for the forgiveness of sins, and therefore done on all, including infants; or whether it is symbolic only and a public statement of faith, and therefore for adults (or at least, older children).

4) Whether the Bread and Wine are the Real Presence of Christ, or only symbols of the Body and Blood.

5) Whether the Bible, alone, is the rule of faith; or the Bible and the Tradition of the Church are Rules of Faith.

[pianowelsh]

If you trust in Christ for salvation you are a Christian if you dont then essentially you are not. Catholics as with any other denomination are the same.  If they trust in Christ for salvation then they can truely say they are Christian. If they trust in priests or the pope to save them same as trusting in a pastor/vicar/elder in any other church for salvation then they miss the point and dont necessarily have salvation.  This is not an exclusively Christian issue Muslims/Hindus/Buddists etc etc all have nominal believers too.  Who Christ sets free is free indeed.

[cfortunato]

If you trust in Christ for salvation you are a Christian if you dont then essentially you are not. Catholics as with any other denomination are the same.  If they trust in Christ for salvation then they can truely say they are Christian. If they trust in priests or the pope to save them same as trusting in a pastor/vicar/elder in any other church for salvation then they miss the point and dont necessarily have salvation. 

I have never heard of any member of any church who thought a priest or pastor could save them.  I think that's a fundamentalist straw man.

[pianowelsh]

Of course people rarely say come to me i'll save you but they do build up your trust. If you come to me i'll speak to God about it for you OR i'll tell you to do this and that and then you'll be alright with God.  But thats not the way God has laid it down for us in his word. its much more simple He wants direct communication with us  and salvation is simple with God - no middle men.  Thats not to say a good pastoral figure will not help you spiritually and counsell you when necessary but our relationship is direct with God through Jesus not through a hierarchy in the Church - it gets real unpersonal that way and God has designed us for a personal intimate relationship with him.

[timothy42b]

Of course people rarely say come to me i'll save you but they do build up your trust. If you come to me i'll speak to God about it for you OR i'll tell you to do this and that and then you'll be alright with God.  But thats not the way God has laid it down for us in his word. its much more simple He wants direct communication with us  and salvation is simple with God - no middle men.  Thats not to say a good pastoral figure will not help you spiritually and counsell you when necessary but our relationship is direct with God through Jesus not through a hierarchy in the Church - it gets real unpersonal that way and God has designed us for a personal intimate relationship with him.

I basically agree with you but you are missing something. 

Again this is a matter of style, not of specific beliefs. 

Churches that focus solely on faith, teachings, and afterlife often have a narrow view of liturgy.  They dislike and distrust traditional formal liturgies such as used in Catholic and Anglican churches, and this comes to include not just the singing but the stained glass windows, the robes of the pastors, the hierarchy of priests and bishops, etc. 

They are right that such things are unnecessary, strictly speaking. 

But in eschewing these trappings, they miss part of the religious experience that to some of us is essential in building community.  Paul believed in faith and fellowship, and would have said you couldn't have one without the other.  This shared structured liturgical approach is part of how we build fellowship and community. 

We know those things don't bring salvation.  We like them anyway.  They are part of the style we want to worship in.  We have no intention of imposing it on any other congregation.  If we had time to worry about it, we'd be insulted by the churches that think we're going to hell for it.

[pianowelsh]

Noone goes to hell for stained glass windows. I dont think that was implicit in my response.  i totally agree that church is about fellowship and community too. Of course it is. A church is simply a family of believers and a 'church' where there is no relational aspect between the members is a very very wierd church with issues.  It has to be said though the primary focus of going to church shouldnt be the community or the stain glass windows or the robes etc it should be to worship God with praise and thanksgiving for what he ahs done for us in Christ through salvation. That is where the focus needs to lie. As a result from this the relational aspect between the congregation should flow because we realise we are all unworthy of salvation it is a gift therefore we are all forgiven and accepted people before God (those that trust in him) and therefore we are equal in our position before God.  In any church situation there are leaders and then the body of worshippers.  The leaders must still be worshippers though ( a point sometimes missed) The leaders yes carry perhaps more responsibility and authority in service in the church but as a part of the body they cannot say to the toe i dont need you because your not important. The whole assembly of believers is important.  Paul teaches alot on this.
Intimacy with God isnt a style of worship its a characteristic.  If there is no intimacy with God then we really have to question whether there is worship going on because God is a personal, relational God. So we have to be carefull in saying its a style thing. Granted in different cultures and traditions it will look different to the eye. some churches people sing with their hands in the air in some you would be incredible conspicuous if you did that in other churches the building is very formal with pews and a massive distance between the congregationa dn the pulpit which is elevated about 40 ft! other places the congregation sit in a circle on the floor and listen to a preacher teach from the centre etc. There are many variations on a theme. However there is one God and he is worshipped in spirit and truth.  If there is no relationship with God through Jesus then worship is impossible.  Its like standing at a raffle trying to look all excited and happy that youve won the prize when you havent even got a ticket - wierd and unreal.  now thats not a perfect illustration because if you are a Christian you are guarenteed the prize (Christ) but i think it serves to show the point that it dosent matter what denomination you are particularly.  If you trust in Christ you can meet him and worship him in a methodist church, a pentecostal church a Catholic church - it dosent particularly matter but the key issue is relationship with 1. Christ - and 2. with one another (if in this church there is no one who has really met with jesus and is in relationship with him - you wont find community and fellowship in the spirit - hopefully you wouldnt find yourself in a church like that but its not impossible).

[ahinton]

WIthout in any way wishing to disparage, still less to appear to be of malicious intent, I have to admit that casting a glance or three over this and various similar threads on Christian and other religious topics that have recently burgeoned in the "Anything but Piano" sector of this forum inclines me to think that what astonishes me most about the writings of "pianowelsh" is not their content per se but what I must presume to be the distressingly small amount of time that they must leave him/her to practise or teach the piano or to speak Welsh...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

WIthout in any way wishing to disparage, still less to appear to be of malicious intent, I have to admit that casting a glance or three over this and various similar threads on Christian and other religious topics that have recently burgeoned in the "Anything but Piano" sector of this forum inclines me to think that what astonishes me most about the writings of "pianowelsh" is not their content per se but what I must presume to be the distressingly small amount of time that they must leave him/her to practise or teach the piano or to speak Welsh...

Best,

Alistair

Another explanation is simply that she types faster than I do. 

Probably because of good piano skills. 

[ahinton]

Another explanation is simply that she types faster than I do. 

Probably because of good piano skills. 

Whilst I admit to possessing no such skills myself, I still cannot help but think that she (I was not previously certain as to "pianowelsh"'s gender) would have to be able to type - and think - very much faster than either of us in order to work out and set down the quantity of material that she posts to these various threads with considerable frequency and regularity were such activity not to result in her having to divert substantial amounts of her time away from pianism or Welshness...

Best,

Alistair

[abstractentity]

Noone goes to hell for stained glass windows. I dont think that was implicit in my response.  i totally agree that church is about fellowship and community too. Of course it is. A church is simply a family of believers and a 'church' where there is no relational aspect between the members is a very very wierd church with issues.  It has to be said though the primary focus of going to church shouldnt be the community or the stain glass windows or the robes etc it should be to worship God with praise and thanksgiving for what he ahs done for us in Christ through salvation. That is where the focus needs to lie.

The focus of the liturgies of the Apostolic Churches (the Mass of the Catholic Church and the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church)  is this praise and thanksgiving, but it doesn't stop there.  We don't just remember it through a memorial meal.  The one saving sacrifice of Christ at Calvary on the Cross  that transcends space and time is re-presented *edit to change represented to re-presented*(not resacrificed) and taken part of at every liturgy. 


 

As a result from this the relational aspect between the congregation should flow because we realise we are all unworthy of salvation it is a gift therefore we are all forgiven and accepted people before God (those that trust in him) and therefore we are equal in our position before God.  In any church situation there are leaders and then the body of worshippers.  The leaders must still be worshippers though ( a point sometimes missed) The leaders yes carry perhaps more responsibility and authority in service in the church but as a part of the body they cannot say to the toe i dont need you because your not important. The whole assembly of believers is important.  Paul teaches alot on this.

As you acknowledge we are all equal in dignity before God, but also have different roles.   
You're right in saying the leaders should also be worshipers which is why I think priests  and the congregation should face the same direction and not the priests facing the people. 

Intimacy with God isnt a style of worship its a characteristic.  If there is no intimacy with God then we really have to question whether there is worship going on because God is a personal, relational God. So we have to be carefull in saying its a style thing. Granted in different cultures and traditions it will look different to the eye. some churches people sing with their hands in the air in some you would be incredible conspicuous if you did that in other churches the building is very formal with pews and a massive distance between the congregationa dn the pulpit which is elevated about 40 ft! other places the congregation sit in a circle on the floor and listen to a preacher teach from the centre etc. There are many variations on a theme. However there is one God and he is worshipped in spirit and truth.  If there is no relationship with God through Jesus then worship is impossible.  Its like standing at a raffle trying to look all excited and happy that youve won the prize when you havent even got a ticket - wierd and unreal.  now thats not a perfect illustration because if you are a Christian you are guarenteed the prize (Christ) but i think it serves to show the point that it dosent matter what denomination you are particularly.  If you trust in Christ you can meet him and worship him in a methodist church, a pentecostal church a Catholic church - it dosent particularly matter but the key issue is relationship with 1. Christ - and 2. with one another (if in this church there is no one who has really met with jesus and is in relationship with him - you wont find community and fellowship in the spirit - hopefully you wouldnt find yourself in a church like that but its not impossible).

Could you get any more intimate than receiving Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity and becoming one with him? This is what occurs when Catholics take part of the mass/the Orthodox take part of the divine liturgy. 

[cosine]

The one saving sacrifice of Christ at Calvary on the Cross  that transcends space and time is represented (not resacrificed) and taken part of at every liturgy. 

I've got just one small comment there. Represented isn't quite the right word to use, because the word represented carries shades of the word symbol in it's meaning. The Mass is not just a symbol of Christ's death on the cross. A better word to use in place of represented would be continued. Each Mass is a continuation (not a resacrifice) of Christ's death on the cross. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross took place physically within material time on earth, but because Christ is God and intimately united with the Father once the physical sacrifice of Christ's body on the cross was ended Christ continues to offer Himself up to the Father for our sins within the spiritual realm. Thus it is accurate to say that each Mass is a continuation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross because spiritually Christ is continually sacrificing and offering Himself up to the Father for our sins.

Make sense? 

[abstractentity]

Of course people rarely say come to me i'll save you but they do build up your trust. If you come to me i'll speak to God about it for you OR i'll tell you to do this and that and then you'll be alright with God.  But thats not the way God has laid it down for us in his word. its much more simple He wants direct communication with us  and salvation is simple with God - no middle men.  Thats not to say a good pastoral figure will not help you spiritually and counsell you when necessary but our relationship is direct with God through Jesus not through a hierarchy in the Church - it gets real unpersonal that way and God has designed us for a personal intimate relationship with him.

Is it really unpersonal?  For the Apostolic Churches, God dispenses his grace through the sacraments by the ordained ministry. 

Humans as beings of matter need tangible experiences to help us experience God and God has given this to us through the sacraments, but through Scripture and Tradition we see that he has called and ordained specific men to dispense this. 

Only through this ordained ministry can we tangibly experience:
Strengthening of the soul by the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands and oil
Receive Christ's body/blood/soul/divinity through bread and wine
Forgiveness through words
Spiritual healing through oil
Taking part of this specific mnistry also by laying on of hands and oil

Only Baptism and Holy Matrimony do not require this ordained ministry.
Anyone can minister Baptism and the ministers of Matrimony are those getting married. 

I've got just one small comment there. Represented isn't quite the right word to use, because the word represented carries shades of the word symbol in it's meaning. The Mass is not just a symbol of Christ's death on the cross. A better word to use in place of represented would be continued. Each Mass is a continuation (not a resacrifice) of Christ's death on the cross. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross took place physically within material time on earth, but because Christ is God and intimately united with the Father once the physical sacrifice of Christ's body on the cross was ended Christ continues to offer Himself up to the Father for our sins within the spiritual realm. Thus it is accurate to say that each Mass is a continuation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross because spiritually Christ is continually sacrificing and offering Himself up to the Father for our sins.

Make sense? 

Actually I really meant re-presented which is VERY different from represented. Thanks for catching my error! I'm more familiar with the language of using re-presented (not represented) than continuation as it seems all Catholic apologetic writings seem to use that word.  In any case, language has always been such a limiting factor in expressing these sublime realities which has led to unnecessary division. 

[cosine]

Actually I really meant re-presented which is VERY different from represented. Thanks for catching my error! I'm more familiar with the language of using re-presented (not represented) than continuation as it seems all Catholic apologetic writings seem to use that word.

Ahh, yes, that's much more accurate! Glad to know that we're on the same page. I'm just accustomed to the word "continuation," so I used it without seeing that you meant re-presented. 

That is what the Mass is, a re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The Mass takes the ongoing spiritual sacrifice of Christ for our sins and re-presents it to us in physical time and in the physical realm (like Christ's sacrifice on the cross as told in the New Testament occurred in the physical world as well as the spritual realm) during celebration of the Eucharist, or Mass. 

In any case, language has always been such a limiting factor in expressing these sublime realities which is led to unnecessary division. 

So true.

[bon_bear]

I'm proud to be a Christian
Most of my friends are Catholics and they attend our church activities too. (Well, youth group to be specific)

It's really not whether you're a Christian or a Catholic that matters...It's really the relationship between you and God that truely is... (that is really our belief )

As for the conflicts between both religions? I've never even heard of that issue spoken in Canada...All we hear are news about Iraq and the gov't screwing up. I mean...that's that...lol

Elizabear~

[cfortunato]

I've got just one small comment there. Represented isn't quite the right word to use, because the word represented carries shades of the word symbol in it's meaning. The Mass is not just a symbol of Christ's death on the cross. A better word to use in place of represented would be continued. Each Mass is a continuation (not a resacrifice) of Christ's death on the cross.

The Greek is good for it - amanensis, the word used for "remembrance" in "do this in remembrance."  It's not just a remembering, but a remembering that makes the thing remember present.

[cosine]

The Greek is good for it - amanensis, the word used for "remembrance" in "do this in remembrance."  It's not just a remembering, but a remembering that makes the thing remember present.

Exactly.

[sarahlein]

I think you meant, anamnesis!

[rimv2]

I have nothing against them, but why are they at war with each other?

They fight because they are stupid.


All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.


Ironically


Christians that arent Catholics are called Protestants.


As we look through history we see that the only real difference between two opposing sides of a conflict are names. Both want to fight each other. Otherwise it would be a masacre and not a conflict.

Random facts

Random facts


Catholics and Protestants

[cfortunato]

Christians that arent Catholics are called Protestants.

Unless they're Orthodox.  Or Copts.  Or the Assyrian Church of the East.  Also, many evangelicals do not self-identify as Protestants.  And Anglicans and Episcopalians claim to be BOTH.

[Siberian Husky]