5 year old

[amanfang]

I have a 5 year old "student" that the parents want him to take "music lessons."  I teach his older sister and his dad piano, and they don't want him to feel left out.  He is NOT ready for piano.  So I did this for a few months, and I'm finding it very hard to keep him "entertained."  Even for 15 minutes.  We change activities fairly frequently.  I told his dad last week that I was having a hard time, and maybe we should take a few months off, but he doesn't want that.  So... I guess the question is, what else can I do?  I need some "active" activities that are somewhat music related.  He doesn't sing on pitch very well, and his rhythm is not that great.  I've tried teaching him some simple tunes by rote on the piano, and after a month, he can play hot cross buns.  I've done marching to Sousa, drumming to Sousa, some activity songs - things like Johnny works with one hammer, hokey pokey, and other movement songs, I've done a rhthym card game, but he's tired of that now.  I'm really running out of ideas.  Any help?  This age is unfamiliar to me.

[gorbee natcase]

Perhaps nursery rhymes, happy birthday twinkle twinkle stuff like that

[luvslive]

Wow, it sounds like the Dad gave you no choice but to teach this little guy..that would irritate me as a teacher.  Maybe you could shorten lessons?  Do 15 minutes only?
As for activities, I would do lots of work with the alphabet, have him say it forward backwards and with 3rds, make it a fun game.  Since rhythm is his weakness have him do clapping games.

[amanfang]

I already only do 15 minutes.  I've done some clapping things.  Clap backs and things.  We used old plastic pepsi bottles and put beans into them for some variety in the clap-backs.  The problem is that he gets bored if I do the same thing every week.  And then he zones out, and Dad comes in and tries to help, but then if he only obeys when dad is there, I don't get any respect.

[luvslive]

I have been in a similar situation.  And no longer am because we (the parent and I) both came to the conclusion that he just wasn't ready for piano (he was 3 years old and energetic as could be)...as for active games...
1. Create a large keyboard and lay it on the floor.  Have him throw a beanbag at it and name the note.  Or have him aim at a certain key.
2. Create or buy a large floor staff.  I've used this countless times.  We would move by steps and skips.  I would play steps up on the keyboard and student would step up on staff, etc.  Also had a "simon says" going at one point- Simon says stand on the top line, etc.
3. Game inspired by Music Mind Games book (Michiki Yurko): Play different dynamics on piano while he acts out various dynamics.  He can also have fun learning different dynamic terms.  Then have him play whilst you act out the different volumes.
Curled up in a ball=piannissimo
Kneeling, head down=piano
Kneeling=mp
Upright on knees=mf
Standing=forte
Jumping with arms up=fortissim
4. Play a cd and pass a beanbag back and forth to the beat.
I say good luck and remain openminded...he probably has good days and bad days for his attention span and behaviors.  Don't make him pay for the fact that his Dad is pushy. 

[balkanshpe]

I told his dad last week that I was having a hard time, and maybe we should take a few months off, but he doesn't want that. 

If I were you- don't suggest that "maybe" you should take time off. Simply declare- things are not working- this child is not ready- and YOU have decided to stop his lessons until he is older.

This Dad will respect you more as a teacher as you are taking charge and not letting him make the decisitions. What do you stand to lose- except a kid who is not mature enough for music?

[zheer]

.
Curled up in a ball=piannissimo
Kneeling, head down=piano
Kneeling=mp
Upright on knees=mf
Standing=forte
Jumping with arms up=fortissim
4

    dont get me the wrong way, but they might as-well do Karate. I dont teach but i have noticed haw 8 , 10 , and even secondary shool students act when they are at the piano, for some reason their IQ drops down to 50.
   What i said about Karate , well am  serious if i had i five year old kid i would rather he do Karate than sit at the piano. So if i was a teacher i would probably say to the parent bring he/she back when they are a little older, and suggest something like Karate, dancing or gymnastics.

[mike_lang]

I don't know why you waste your time on this child, or why his father makes your professional decisions.

[arensky]

5 is awfully young, I generally don't take kids younger than 6 and they have to be able to add 1+1, 1+2, and 2+2 and know the alphabet up to G. Many kids under 10, particularly boys have a short attention span and it's good to spend part of the lesson playing music games, looking in the piano, playing Heart and Soul  (I hate it but they love it) etc. This young man sounds like he isn't ready for instruction; Well if his Dad and sis don't want him to feel left out THEY can help him along at home, with "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" and he'll be included and you won't be aggravated. Explain to dear ol' Dad that junior is very bright and that soon he'll be ready for lessons, kids open up/become receptive/hear and understand/and do at different times in their development, and soon the boy will be ready. Sounds like Dad is serious and commited to this, it's a family thing and that's great, I wish more of my student's families were like that! Hopefully Dad will hear what you're saying.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Seems that it is the father that wants his 5 year old to practice. I suggest keep the lessons light, if only 15 minutes. He is only 5 and as he gets older his attention span will increase. Don't stress anything on to his and just let him play. Hope this helps.

[luvslive]

    dont get me the wrong way, but they might as-well do Karate. I dont teach but i have noticed haw 8 , 10 , and even secondary shool students act when they are at the piano, for some reason their IQ drops down to 50.
   What i said about Karate , well am  serious if i had i five year old kid i would rather he do Karate than sit at the piano. So if i was a teacher i would probably say to the parent bring he/she back when they are a little older, and suggest something like Karate, dancing or gymnastics.

Yes, dancing or movement are a good precursor to music lessons.  Though I think the dynamic game I mentioned IS a worthwhile activity and kids really enjoy it..sure they get to jump around and act silly, but they also will use their ears to hear the difference between the different dynamics and could be taught the names of the dynamics in a way that they won't forget them.  My 3 year old student LOVED this game and could say all the dynamic names.   Piano lessons just could not be too serious because of his age.  He is no longer taking piano with me, though.  He moved on to violin, which I think is smart because he is no longer required to "sit" at his instrument..he can dance and play if he really wants.   

[zheer]

.  My 3 year old student LOVED this game and could say all the dynamic names. 

   That is very impressive, really am not trying to be funny.

[tiasjoy]

Hi amanfang

I know you posted this a month ago but I only just registered. 

I hope you haven't given up on your 5 year old.

I came onto this forum because I too have a 5 year old I'm teaching and was hoping to get some help.  We've only had  2 lessons and already I'm frustrated and worried.  HOWEVER!! i don't want to give up.  (I was a bit discouraged to read people suggesting that was an option - which it is, but if I gave up on all my students who challenge me I wouldn't have any left.)

I was very worried I would't be able to 'teach' a five year old successfully, but the other day her mother said she came home beaming and just wouldn't shut up singing the new song I taught her.  So now I feel a bit relieved.  She's having fun and can't wait for her lesson, and perhaps at this age and stage, that's about all we can expect (?) hope for (?) be satisfied with (?)


this thread was helpful though ...https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4020.msg36635.html

[clariniano]

I teach two students who started at 5 1/2 (one boy, one girl) and they are both doing wonderfully--the 5 1/2 year old girl gets a 20-min lesson twice a week, and she has just started Level 2A, been studying about a year. I use the Faber books, the Lesson, Technique, Performance, and Theory Books, the girl is 6 1/2 now. The 5 1/2 year old boy gets a 40 min lesson once a week, has been studying just over 3 months, and is on Unit 7 in the Primer. In both cases the parents watch the lessons. Before they began, I determined their readiness for lessons, by asking if they knew the alphabet, how high they could count, their attention span, whether they could, or are learning to read, whether they knew left from right, and doing some preliminary exercises, playing the "10 little indians" finger game and showing them the finger numbers and having them show me the finger numbers I call out. I use the Faber Primer-Level 2A flashcards too with all my piano students, especially these two.

I've had cases of students who were not ready. The 6 year old brother of a clarinet student I teach was not ready, didn't know left from right, mixed up his finger numbers, and didn't seem to be able to coordinate his hand for hand and finger tapping exercises.

I think the keys with starting students young are determining their readiness for lessons, having a variety of activities (the boy loves the theory work, and tthey both love the flashcards).

Meri

[tiasjoy]

clariniano, it's encouraging to hear your little ones are going well. 
Do you involve the parent in the lesson?  Do you ask the parent to help them practise or are they able to do this on their own? 

thanks for your help.

[clariniano]

clariniano, it's encouraging to hear your little ones are going well. 
Do you involve the parent in the lesson?  Do you ask the parent to help them practise or are they able to do this on their own? 

thanks for your help.

Yes, the parents are involved in the lesson, sometimes they help refocus the child (and occasionally help them with reading the notes), and the parents help them practice by setting a regular time each day, most days, twice a day for 15-20 minutes, and encouraging them to perform for family and friends.

Meri

[ashcatty]

I don't know if you've tried the books "Music for Little Mozarts" but they are geared toward the younger child and work great.  Lots of things to keep the kids busy and there is even a set with a small white board that has 2 sides, one has the music staff and the other has a small keyboard and blank space. It works great to have the kids do activities. You can say "draw a quarter note" or come up with other activities and they have fun doing it and it makes it less work for you to have to come up with new things to keep your student engaged in the lesson.

[juliax]

With younger kids it is more important for you to instill a love of music, not necessarily just to teach them like you would someone older.  I have had hundreds of 5 year old students, who later became, 6, 7, 8, 9 year old students.  It's such a great feeling getting to know someone musically at such a young age!  I have even had 4 year old students.  I think they are the most fun because they really are the easiest to entertain, and if you tell them they did a good job, they appreciate it MUCH more than older students.   My "Wow!!  That was SO amazing!!" doesn't quite sound as over-blown as it would to an adult.  I always overly compliment my younger students to help them feel more secure and more excited about playing.  This also helps them pay attention. 
I also like to play chord progressions and let them ad lib in C position.  I will switch to things like "bouncy" and "smooth" and "super loud" and "super quiet" and as I change my playing, he/she changes to match.
I also incorporate CDs with my lessons.  There is a series called "Proggressive" from Australia that is excellent for young beginners.  It goes throught the notes one at a time.  The first song is just "C" over and over, but with the CD it sounds really neat.  Also, it teaches the left hand in regular C position.  I don't know about the other teachers, but teaching a young child middle C position, then changing it, is just confusing for them and annoying for me. 
Composition can also be really fun for 5 year olds, and it can take up TONS of lesson time.  I teach mine to draw all the notes and symbols.  Then, I help them come up with a melody, and they draw it out themselves in pencil.  Then I go through and clean up their mess so they can practice it.  At the school I used to work at, I would print out copies of their music using Encore, a music writing program, but I have yet to purchase a program like that for my independent students. 
You may wonder, how can a 5 year old write their own music?  In order to assist them with their composition, I divide their music into 8 or 16 measures, and let each 4 measures begin and end on C.  This way, no matter what they come up with, it'll sound somewhat decent.  I let them fiddle around with melodies, and I kind of guide them on what sounds good and what doesn't.  Then we decide which notes are quarter, and which are half, and how many can fit in each measure.  It's fun, it's time consuming, and at the end the student has a song that they can rightfully claim as their own (even if I did do most of it myself.)  If they are really creative, they can even add words!  I sing about a playground swing with one of my 5 year olds at the beginning of almost every lesson.  She loves it!
I don't think you should give up on this kid, in any way.  His father AND his brother play, and in my experience that's almost a guaranteed student for life (or till they leave for college.)
This along with the games that have already been suggested should be plenty to fill up your lessons!  I hope this was helpful.
Take care,
cj

[abell88]

At the school I used to work at, I would print out copies of their music using Encore, a music writing program, but I have yet to purchase a program like that for my independent students.

(You can download Finale NotePad for free from codamusic.com)

[juliax]

(You can download Finale NotePad for free from codamusic.com)

wow, thanks!  I really appreciate that

[tompilk]

I started at 4/5 years old but for a long time to begin with we were clapping beats and dancing around the room - not much playing.. definitely not serious playing. I cant really remember myself but it seems a good idea - music lessons not piano lessons...
Tom

[ingagroznaya]

I absolutely love Alfred Prep Course. Lesson and Solo books, plus flash cards and one involved parent ( who plays the flash cards with a child for a few weeks ) can make magic.
My 4 years olds play. I currently teach six 5 years olds. We don't play games, we play piano.
I'd like to comment on "Progressive" series from Australia. I now teach two Australian girls, who went through this program. Results are unbelievable! The count is so ingrained in those little girls heads, they do not have to count... It's almost a part of them. It's comes so naturally. One of them just turned 6 and we are playing Schumann's "The Wild Horseman".

As for the original post -- father must get involved. I see no point in entertaining the child with 15 minutes lessons about "piano" and "pianissimo". Waste of his money and your time.

[tiasjoy]

"Progressive" series from Australia.

Did a search and there are a number of options - do you know who publishes it?

Is this it? https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_inside.html?cart=335437516242645224&item=101846&page=cover

or this?  https://www.ecampus.com/book/0947183264

It appears as though the first version is for adults, the second for kids?  Is it the latter you have used?

[ingagroznaya]

Tiasjoy,
I'm sorry I can't tell just by looking at those books. It is not necessarily the books alone. It's the method practiced in Australia. Kids start GROUP lessons at a very early age. About 3 years old. It is not individual lessons. I think it works fantastic for a child who is 3. It's fun, low pressure and entertaining. Starting those group lessons at 5 years of age would not produce the same results, I am afraid.
For individual lessons I strongly recommend Prep Alfred's Course. Parents must work on those Flash Cards at home with a student to learn the notes. It's takes about a week for a 5 years old to memorize all 10 notes - C to G in treble clef and C to G in bass.
I usually have 30 or 45 minutes individual lessons with 5 year old students. 45 minutes lessons for girls and 30 minutes lessons for boys.

Expecting any teacher to teach the notes on one lesson per week is asking for impossible.
Most parents of my young students do not play piano. All correct answers are in the back of those flash cards, so there is no excuse.

Good luck. It works.

[juliax]

Did a search and there are a number of options - do you know who publishes it?

Is this it? https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_inside.html?cart=335437516242645224&item=101846&page=cover

or this?  https://www.ecampus.com/book/0947183264

It appears as though the first version is for adults, the second for kids?  Is it the latter you have used?

I have used both, actually.  At the school I worked at, we started kids from age 4 to 7 with the second book you listed, and ages 8 and up on the second.  Then there is also an adult book.  I switch my students from Progressive to Hal Leonard, asap.  The only reason I don't use Hal Leonard's Level 1 book is because I like how Progressive introduces note reading better than Leonard.

I'm copying this from the Hal Leonard site because it is SO true.  If I hadn't used Hal Leonard, I would NEVER have been able to carry 50 students, 20 of which were beginners between the age of 4 and 7.

The Hal Leonard Student Piano Library has great music. It's that simple.

Great music means motivated students, inspired teachers and delighted parents. You couldn't ask for better results! We've combined wonderful music with solid pedagogy and an innovative approach to learning, to create a winning method for everyone. It's a method that encourages practice, progress, confidence, and best of all - success! Students respond with enthusiasm to the:
Variety of styles and moods
Natural rhythmic flow, singable melodies and lyrics
Exceptional teacher accompaniments
Improvisations threaded throughout the series
Instrumental Accompaniments for every piece available on CD or General MIDI disk
Supportive supplementary materials graded to complement the Hal Leonard Student Piano Library, including: fantastic seasonal music, solo and ensembles songbooks, and helpful teaching aids.
When new concepts have an immediate application to the music, the effort it takes to learn these skills seems worth it. Teachers appreciate:
Realistic pacing that challenges without overwhelming
Clear and concise presentation of concepts
Uncluttered page layout that keeps the focus on the music.

https://www.halleonard.com/hlsplMethod.jsp

I used to recieve "problem" students that other teachers had rejected, saying they weren't motivated enough, smart enough, old enough, etc. and have blown parents away by how quickly I can get them to practice on their own and how excited they are about their lessons with me.  I hope all this is helpful!