Composing....

[tompilk]

Hi. Are there any rules for composing for piano? OR do you just play what sounds nice? I know nothing about theory so i think im a bit stuck... but i listen to piano music pretty much all day every day (except at school) and know what sounds good...
Tom

[Ruro]

 Lo Tompilk,

 I asked this question alot myself before I really started getting into composing, in fear of it being structurally wrong or something crazy... but unless you are dealing with a specific type of piece, like Fugue or Sonata or something, I believe there is little to worry about.

 I recall reading a Fantasie generally has no "plot" within the piece, or if it's simply a short piece, you can probably make an educated guess as to whether it's an Etude or Prelude or something. Usually I decide what I plan to compose before-hand, and it basically ends up as whatever I hoped for! And just with the way it "sounds" you can make quite a good guess, I mean... what else could you call Chopin's 10/1

 I'm intreagued as to what answers from other members share with us again though, I have practically no theory knowledge (dunno the whole Dim7 stuff etc.), and I swear there should be more too it all! Probably too much to explain though... I have noticed there are courses for composing (at Julliard though!), so there must be a darned lot too it!

 I would presume Wikipedia has some excellent entries on these musical aspects; Sonata, Fugue etc. and presume it atleast EXPLAINS the differences, if not give you some pointers on there construction!

 Hope I was of some help! As it will probably take a long time to master the construction of some of these forms... I would say just go for it, get them down on paper or whatever, and then when your more experienced, modify! *Shrugs* ^_^

 Kind Regards,
    Ruro

PS: Glad to hear you listen to Classical so much! I often lack good development of my ideas in my composing, and listening closely to pieces generally gives me some great ideas! So keep your Ears open

 Further More: Maybe some handy info in my old thread
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10812.0.html - "Composing Rules?"
 And for Concerti's Sake...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15195.0.html - "Complexity Of A Concerto"
 No doubt there are tons more useful threads around here somewhere, I just know I made these related to the same subject

[Derek]

Hi. Are there any rules for composing for piano? OR do you just play what sounds nice? I know nothing about theory so i think im a bit stuck... but i listen to piano music pretty much all day every day (except at school) and know what sounds good...
Tom

There are no rules whatsoever. There were a number of habits that the great Western composers tended to adhere to more often than not, however. But, it is debatable whether strict adherance to these rules has anything at all to do with musicality.

From a lot of reading and talking to my piano teacher, there is actually quite a bit of piano literature, even in classical music, which breaks all kinds of rules. So...if you're composing for piano I'd say just go with what sounds good.

What I find odd is traditionalists like my piano teacher seem to have a contradictory viewpoint. I spoke with him about parallel fifths recently and he said that they are just another color available to a composer, but then tried to justify why they are "wrong" in theory assignments for college students.  I personally don't understand this.  I think they should just tell it like it is: "in this class, you will be strictly imitating 4 part chorale music from the baroque era."  and then afterwards say, okay you don't need to adhere to those guidelines anymore.

[rc]

I think they should just tell it like it is: "in this class, you will be strictly imitating 4 part chorale music from the baroque era."  and then afterwards say, okay you don't need to adhere to those guidelines anymore.

Hmmmm... I s'pose that's just assumed. Theory is all abstracted from the music afterall, not saying it's bad, but it's just for teaching purposes. I remember reading the reason for not using too much parallel motion in counterpoint exercises somewhere. I think the idea was that too much parallel motion, especially 5ths or octaves, would sound more like one voice than multiple voices... which goes against the purpose of counterpoint exercises.

You're allowed to do anything in composition. I would say it's better to have an idea of what your doing than just going by what sounds nice. I mean that you will have rhyme and reason behind what your doing, and it will have that deeper layer of meaning. That's up to you though, whatever you would like to do.

[tac-tics]

Before I really started playing piano, I was interested primarlily in composition.

Looking around the Internet, all I can say is there is distastefully sparce information on this subject. It seems __everyone__ wants to write a tutorial on constructing chords. They explain what I, V, IV, vi, ii, iii, and viiº are, but I don't think I came across one that tried to explain how each chord is used. Finally, I came across this site which has a decent tutorial. It's far from comprehensive, but I think it's a step in the right direction for most kinds of music you hear today.

For reference, this site also provides free transcriptions of anime music, so if you like that stuff (because I know I do), it's a really cool site.

https://forums.ichigos.com/showthread.php?t=811

[Derek]

I am in fact trying to learn all of the part writing guidelines and  try to incorporate them into my improvisation sometimes, but I consider this completely optional. I do not feel any overwhelming need to never double the leading tone, no overwhelming need not to use bare fifths, etc.  But whenever I please, I can use smooth voice leading in my playing. Ends up making me sound like late classical/early romantic,  which can have some nice sounds, but it is by no means the be all and end all of expression.