How Do You Assess Your Student's Progress with Scales/Chords/Arpeggios?

[soleil_nuage]

I am an adult learner who has been taking lessons for over a year.  I am at an early intermediate level (ABRSM level 3 I think).  I am interested primarily in classical music. 

Knowing how important scales, chords, and arpeggios are, I practice them just about every day.  I am working my way through learning the 24 major and minor scales.

I have noticed that during my lessons, my teacher doesn't ask about my progress with learning scales/chords/arps and doesn't ask me to play them to make sure that I am on the right track.  I have asked questions a few times about how to practice them and have gotten pointers.  Like recently, after reading a thread about playing scales evenly, I asked her about it.  She asked me to play and it turns out that I wasn't playing them evenly. My thumb was being heavy.

I am a bit concerned that I, the student, have to initiate the discussion on these issues.  From another excellent thread, I saw that there are many ways of honing these skills, like thirds, sixths, tenths scales, dominant seventh arpeggios, etc. 

How will I know when I am ready to progress to these things unless I have to keep asking?

How do you approach this issue with your students? Am I being unreasonable in my concerns? Lack of guidance on this issue was one of the reasons I dropped my last teacher.  Now, I am wondering if it is normal to not emphasize scales/chords/arp development.

I would appreciate any insights from both teachers and students.

Thanks!


 

[mike_lang]

No, it is not normal; my teacher had me play these for the first 15 min. of every lesson.  It is important to begin every lesson with them - they are one of those most consistent ways to monitor technique.  I don't think you should have to tell your teacher this, but if you want to keep the teacher, make it clear to him/her that this is of great importance to you.

Best,
Michael

[rc]

Ach, had a reply all ready, then the computer crashed.

Well, as an adult student, you can do your own research and find information outside of lessons. It's great to be able to bring things up to your teacher. From the teachers shoes, I imagine it's not always easy to be able to tell what a student needs.

At first my lessons were fairly haphazard and aimless. Then one day I sat down and let the teacher know about what kinds of goals I had with piano playing, and we were able to work out a game plan. No need for a map if you have no destination. Then he worked out a scheme for learning scales/chords/arps for what was required. I'm still the one who brings it up in lessons, but that's because I know what I've accomplished that week and what I have ready to show.

I get the feeling that teachers will assume most adult students aren't too interested in such things and just want to have a hobby. So I would strongly suggest letting your teacher in on your goals, and anything else you're concerned with in lessons... Else how is she to know? You've got to approach lessons as a team.

A suggestion for even scales: practice as softly as possible. It will develop your touch (playing softly is not so easy), and any heavy fingers will stick out... Like a sore thumb.

[sarahlein]

soleil_nuage,

I was wondering, did your teacher introduce scales and arpeggios to you or was it on your own initiative that you started working on them?
If the first, how did he do that? Did he mention why you should study them or even how?

Remember that scales and arpeggios are just a means to an end, not the end in itself!

Knowing how important scales, chords, and arpeggios are, I practice them just about every day.....

I'm curious. How important do you feel they are?
(note I never said they are not important or that I don't teach them to my students! )

[pianistimo]

speed and accuracy is probably what you are going for.

good that you are going thru all 24 keys.  my teacher used to have us play two octaves at rhythms of two, then three with rhythms of three, then four with rhythms of four, and then the whole octave/one beat per 7 notes.  it's a good way to adjust from one speed to another slowly instead of just trying to play fast.  also, as you play faster, you learn to play lighter and softer.  this helps you play without tenseness.  try it!!

after you learn your scales really well, try some of the five-finger exercises, too, of varioius composers - and etudes and studies.  i think  zephyrmusic has a catalog of all the exercises of various composers in the front of the catalog.  you can find a lot of threads on here about exercises, too.  they give you dexterity and evenness.  don't feel badly if you don't obtain this right away.  it takes years to refine how you want to sound, but at least keep in mind the speed being faster due to your fingers becoming closer and closer to the keyboard and playing as light as possible.  you don't want carpel tunnels from over-doing exercises either - so don't overdo!

[soleil_nuage]

Thanks for your advice and insights.

RC, I am exactly in that place where I feel that my lessons are unstructured.  This could be my fault.  With my first teacher, we were using the Alfred books.  I told my second teacher that I didn't like these books because I wanted to play music in its original form and didn't like the arrangements in the book.  Plus the books don't have enough classical music in them.  So we decided not to use a method book.

Very good point about defining what my goals are.  When I started lessons, I said that I wanted to learn piano and I was interested in classical music primarily.  I figured that the teacher would have some sort of curricilum in mind for us to work toward.

If I had to define my goals more, I would say that I want to achieve the highest level of musicianship that my level of talent, discipline and motivation will take me.  In five to ten years, I wouldn't mind being a part-time musician. I am not quite sure how to explain it any more than this without getting too specific and risking leaving things out. 

This is a hobby for me but it is a serious hobby.  If I wanted to just play around on the piano, I wouldn't have signed up with a private teacher.  I would have taken classes at the local community college.

Sareleigh, re the introduction of scales, etc.  my first teacher introduced the scales/chords because we were using the Alfred method book.  She also taught arpeggios and I learned more about how to play them from reading piano forums.

I guess the bottom line is that since I am a beginner, I don't think that I have enough experience or vision or forethought to know what things I need to work on.  I am relying on my teacher to guide me.

[sarahlein]

soleil_nuage,


you might find these links of interest:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
( reply #3 -the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(reply #9-Not practising scales outside pieces;what does that mean)

and another list of scale-related-links:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12263.0.html

all kindly provided by Bernhard! 

[zheer]

I was trying to think why it is that i dont like scales and arppegio practice, though they are good at first. When you play music, the last thing you want to do is make a scale sound like a scale and a arppegio sound like an arppegio. And there you have it my conclusion after 15 years of piano playing.

[rc]

Thanks for your advice and insights.

your welcome

I was trying to think why it is that i dont like scales and arppegio practice, though they are good at first. When you play music, the last thing you want to do is make a scale sound like a scale and a arppegio sound like an arppegio. And there you have it my conclusion after 15 years of piano playing.

hahah, I know what you mean... Lately I've found it works best to try and make the scales sound like actual music. I had to, playing them mechanically was putting me to sleep . Acting as if these exercises were actual music makes the practice much more effective, and really works the imagination...

In any case, I'm truely hoping that at some point practicing these things daily will become unnecessary.

[zheer]

In any case, I'm truely hoping that at some point practicing these things daily will become unnecessary.

    Have you heard Daniel BARENBOIM play Beethovens Appassinata sonata 3rd MVT Allegro ma non troppo, well if you have  you will know it is full of scales and arppegios. Anyway he was'nt playing scales and arppegios, he was creating music, and he makes you want to play the piano. Somehaw he is able to do this effortlessly, he does'nt play louder he does'nt play faster, he just simply plays better. 

[rlefebvr]

There is no reason for a teacher to waste time listening to you play scales during a course especially when time is limited.

Usually, every 4 to 6 weeks, the technical aspect of your playing should be touched upon and revised. Not all teachers feel the need to teach technique for the technique aspect only. This has been talked about quite a bit in this forum.

My personal opinion is that scales and arpeggios and such are very important, especially for the adult learner who's fingers don't always follow what the brain demands.

The 2 most important aspect of these exercises is building up speed and evenness.
Use a metronome and build up. Do not play faster if you can't hold the sound. It is useless.

Teachers also react differently to adults then children and this could happening with your teacher. It could also be you need another teacher, but only you can decide this.

You are an adult, so take a half hour and discuss what you want from your learning experience and see if the teacher agrees with you or what his or her own ideas are. You may be surprised.

This should be revised every year anyway. What kind of progress have you made in the past, what should be worked on in the new year and how to achieve these new goals.

Teachers tend to give to much leeway with adults out of respect. Tell your teacher not to let you dictate what you should or should not be playing, but to give you the learning you need to advance to a new level of playing


P.S.
My daughter almost never does scales and her playing does not suffer from it. When she does play her scales, they are just as good as they were the last time she played them. She is better off playing  pieces with scales and arpeggios in them.
I on the other hand play scales daily and if I stop for a month, it shows and I have to work to get it back on track.
Everybody is different. There is no one way to practise. You practise what you need to get better. Period.

[rc]

    Have you heard Daniel BARENBOIM play Beethovens Appassinata sonata 3rd MVT Allegro ma non troppo, well if you have  you will know it is full of scales and arppegios. Anyway he was'nt playing scales and arppegios, he was creating music, and he makes you want to play the piano. Somehaw he is able to do this effortlessly, he does'nt play louder he does'nt play faster, he just simply plays better. 

I'm not sure what this turn in the conversation is about... But I think I should find a recording of Barenboim's Apassionata. All I know of the guy is reading a book called 'Parallels and Paradoxes', which was a book of conversations between Barenboim and Edward Said. That book helped me get to sleep many nights.

Maybe I should clarify, I was talking about not needing to practice scales/chords/arpeggios in the sense that having gone through them all and internalized it, not needing to constantly maintain those skills... Like rlefebvr's daughter.

I don't think it should be compulsive, but I guess if someone has to maintain it daily that's all there is to it.

[zheer]

I'm not sure what this turn in the conversation is

Maybe I should clarify, I was talking about not needing to practice scales/chords/arpeggios in the sense that having gone through them all and internalized it, not needing to constantly maintain those skills... Like rlefebvr's daughter.

  I have no hidden intention, i was simply agreeing with you, that once you know your scales, its a good idea to never play them again. The example abou DB was my way of describing the difference between a scale outside music and a scale playd by DB within its musical context.

[rc]

  I have no hidden intention, i was simply agreeing with you, that once you know your scales, its a good idea to never play them again. The example abou DB was my way of describing the difference between a scale outside music and a scale playd by DB within its musical context.

cool, and I wasn't really worried that you had any hidden intentions... Simply wasn't sure where the example was coming from.

 

[musik_man]

There is no need to have any skill in scales/chords/arpeggios outside of pieces.  Now, I'm not saying that they are worthless, only stating that their value is solely derived from the improvement they give your repertoire.  If your teacher thinks you are doing well enough with respect to that, there is no reason to hear your scales.

As far as the value of scales, I think they are important only in a non-technical context.  Don't do them with the hope of playing Liszt.  Do them to build your knowledge of key signatures.  Thorough knowledge of the key signatures is a must for sightreading.

[timothy42b]

There is no need to have any skill in scales/chords/arpeggios outside of pieces.  Now, I'm not saying that they are worthless, only stating that their value is solely derived from the improvement they give your repertoire.  If your teacher thinks you are doing well enough with respect to that, there is no reason to hear your scales.

As far as the value of scales, I think they are important only in a non-technical context.  Don't do them with the hope of playing Liszt.  Do them to build your knowledge of key signatures.  Thorough knowledge of the key signatures is a must for sightreading.

I'm not sure that is equally applicable to all music.  The person who only plays Bach chorales will never need to know a chord and possibly not a scale.

On the other hand, someone who accompanies from a fake book had better have a pretty thorough grasp of chords and inversions, right?  And anyone who does much improvising should be fluent in scales? 

Just a thought.  Could be wrong.  But I suspect you have assumed a classical pianist only, and they are not the whole universe of players.  Or even the majority. 

If I'm right, it would be useful to have a structured method of review to keep them all fresh.