Open the Piano! -a warning for people who have to "play quietly"

[donjuan]

Just had my piano technician tell me that my hammers have really been hitting the strings too hard, and more strings will break if I keep it up. (he was here to replace a broken string)  Anyway, from seeing the shape of the hammers etc he was able to tell that I must play with a closed piano, and during loud passages, I inappropriately press the una corda pedal.

My problem: My family!  They live in the house too.  having a loud piano banging all the time is annoying, so I always played with the lid down, and I tended to use the una corda pedal when I am not supposed to (like, during fff ), just so the house is more livable for the people around me.

Don't do this; Don't do what I did, or you will bust up your strings, ...like I did!!

The problem is, the music really does need to be louder, so while playing on a closed piano, with the una corda pedal down, I must have pressed too hard, while subconsciously trying to make it louder.  Bad! bad bad dont do it!  What happens is you bust up the strings on your home piano, and when you go play in a concert on an open piano, you bash the hell out of it by accident, by not realizing you arent at home anymore.

Just advice for people who might be thinking they are in the same boat as I was in (living with people who make you play quietly):  If you want it louder, open up the piano lid a bit, and lighten up your touch.  Absolutely everything gets better.  When I first decided to do it, I had to consciously pay attention to the loudness I was creating, as with an open piano, I can get the equivalent sound of a closed piano much more easily.

summary:
save your strings! Open up the piano, play with lighter touch -use arm weight, never push down-, and don't use the una corda pedal as a method of making the sound friendlier to the non-musicians of the household!

unless, of course, no one else here has that problem, in which case I'll just shut up right now

[richy321]

You make a very good point.  The way to gain control over volume is not to artificially reduce the sensitivity of the instrument, such as using a digital keyboard or using the unda cord or practice mute on an acoustic,  but to increase the control of your arm and fingers.  I learned the hard way, having played on a digital for years before getting an acoustic.  At first I was completely unable to play softly.  At first I blamed it on my piano.  Only by forcing myself to play without the soft pedal and playing soft Debussy pieces  was I finally able to control of the softer dynamics.   Inappropriate use of the soft pedal is definitely harmful to the touch and, as you point out, bad for the strings too.

Rich Y

[mike_lang]

Just  be careful with what kind of attack you use for your forte.  That which produces the harshest tone is most detrimental.  You don't need to play harshly, only strongly.  I.E., maybe deeper in the keys, closer to the keys perhaps...  Experiment.  One should be able to play strongly without breaking strings.  Btw, do you play an upright?  The strings break much more easily on those.

[iumonito]

My solution for that one was to get a cheap digital that is reserved for anything post-Debussy and anything louder than the loudest forte in a Mozart sonata.

[donjuan]

Btw, do you play an upright?  The strings break much more easily on those.

no, it was a grand - 5'8''
I always thought it was the opposite..  on upright, the soft pedal just moves the hammers closer to the strings, but on Grand, the una corda pedal doesnt change the distance.  Logically, if the starting distance is reduced on an upright, well,  that should reduce breakage.. less distance, less room to accelerate, less force, right?                F = ma 

Whereas on a grand, the una corda shifts it over so the hammers only hit 2/3 strings.  However, if you play loud like this, (like I was, subconsciously trying to get the sound of 3 strings on 2), there are still 2 strings being played really hard.

[mike_lang]

no, it was a grand - 5'8''
I always thought it was the opposite..  on upright, the soft pedal just moves the hammers closer to the strings, but on Grand, the una corda pedal doesnt change the distance.  Logically, if the starting distance is reduced on an upright, well,  that should reduce breakage.. less distance, less room to accelerate, less force, right?                F = ma 

Whereas on a grand, the una corda shifts it over so the hammers only hit 2/3 strings.  However, if you play loud like this, (like I was, subconsciously trying to get the sound of 3 strings on 2), there are still 2 strings being played really hard.

I'm not sure - I know that I've broken far more strings on uprights.  I don't know why it is this way - my piano tuner told me not to play my upright as if I were playing a grand, whatever that means.  Sorry that I don't have a better explanation.  More experience than science here.

[iumonito]

no, it was a grand - 5'8''
I always thought it was the opposite..  on upright, the soft pedal just moves the hammers closer to the strings, but on Grand, the una corda pedal doesnt change the distance.  Logically, if the starting distance is reduced on an upright, well,  that should reduce breakage.. less distance, less room to accelerate, less force, right?                F = ma 

Whereas on a grand, the una corda shifts it over so the hammers only hit 2/3 strings.  However, if you play loud like this, (like I was, subconsciously trying to get the sound of 3 strings on 2), there are still 2 strings being played really hard.

Couple of thoughts on this.  Hard hammers are more likely to break a string than soft hammers.  I would tend to think that uprights in general have hammers less carefully voiced and generally harder than grands.

Also, string tension, particularly at an angle, like with a capo d'astro bar, is more likely to produce string breakage than low tension strings.

And by the way, I think the acceleration of the hammer is not constant.  I know nothing of physics, but from my observation in a grand the hammer reachs a point where inertia allows the hammer to strike the string.  At that point the hammer is deaccelerating thanks to gravity.  On an upright, because of the vector at which the hammer travels the gravitational deacceleration must be much lesser.

[zheer]

I dont know if this has been mentioned already, but the alternative to a loud sound , is a big sound, you can achieve this through carefully balancing what comes before and what happens after a FFF section.

[tac-tics]

I have a digital piano here at school, and I've found it works both ways.

If I don't play it with 100% volume, I notice certain passages in the songs I'm learning really strain my hand and wrists, since I hit the keys harder than I should be.

[invictus]

Ok, i suck at physics(relative to chemistry and biology), but i am awesome at chemistry and biology, but i will give it a try

If you use Una corda on a upright, it reduces the distance between the hammer.

F=ma
Netforce = Mass times Acceleration

Since distance is not a factor, the acceleration remains the same because the force you hit the keys is still the same. The mass is constant throughout, the reduced distance does not make any difference.

Even for the formula of Kinetic Energy

E=(mv^2)/2
Distance is still not a factor in that, only mass and velocity. Since you hit the keys with the same force whether you are using una corda or no una corda, the distance is reduced, but the velocity and acceleration still remains the same. Thus, using una corda on your upright has no effect whatsoever for saving your strings.

And it kills the strings for a grand piano because you are sending this force onto 2 strings, not 3, so the force is more concentrated.

[hiline]

I thought using the soft pedal on an upright would put down a curtain between the strings and the hammers. Am I mistaken here?

[mike_lang]

I thought using the soft pedal on an upright would put down a curtain between the strings and the hammers. Am I mistaken here?

Yes.

[donjuan]

And it kills the strings for a grand piano because you are sending this force onto 2 strings, not 3, so the force is more concentrated.

ahhhh now THAT makes sense.

I thought using the soft pedal on an upright would put down a curtain between the strings and the hammers. Am I mistaken here?

hahaha that's the 'mute' pedal! Practicing with that on is like practicing with cotton balls stuffed in your ears. -usless!

[mike_lang]

ahhhh now THAT makes sense.
hahaha that's the 'mute' pedal! Practicing with that on is like practicing with cotton balls stuffed in your ears. -usless!

Mute pedal is useful for one thing, actually - before I knew what it was (and after of course), it sounded to me as if I were playing on a Rhodes.  Good for a cheap effect, I guess.

[hiline]

I asked because I did not think the 'soft' pedal could significantly reduce the volume from an upright. Just to make clear, is that the pedal on the left ?

[pianistimo]

the una chorda does move the entire action over so that the hammers strike two strings instead of three. invictus is correct, imo, about how much energy is then directed on to two strings instead of three.  if your piano doesn't have a mute - you can find tuners who will install something for you.  i've had it done on my upright (a pull throttle thingy - that drops a keyboard length band of felt down between the hammers and the strings).  there are certain pianos that come with a mute pedal (look on the instrument thread) already installed - and are VERY useful if your family or neighbors won't let you practice the length of time you need to.

i tend to practice very long hours one day and then less on other days.  late at night is probably the most disturbing to most people.  when our home was being built, i made sure that we got insulation in all the walls around the music room.  BUT, there are two windows.  somewhat necessary for light - but i'm wondering if i put a heavy cloth or covering on them when i want to practice late if it would dampen the sound to the outside? 

[cy_shuster]

I asked because I did not think the 'soft' pedal could significantly reduce the volume from an upright. Just to make clear, is that the pedal on the left ?

Yes, the leftmost pedal on both grands and uprights is the "una corda" or shift pedal.  Yes, it doesn't have much effect on uprights.

There's no real standard for the middle pedal on uprights.  On older pianos, it simply lifts the dampers for the bass section (like the right pedal), allowing you to play a melody without blurring it.  On many newer Asian pianos, the middle pedal drops a sheet of felt between the hammers and strings, giving a much quieter sound for practicing.  Here is the add-on version that another poster mentioned:
https://www.clicshop.com/Stores/thepianoshop/c49483p9623820.2.html

Here are some products to help quieten grand pianos:
https://www.pianosupply.com/acoustic/

You can have your piano adjusted to help you play quieter.  Play a note as slowly as you can, and see how close you can get the hammer to the strings.  It should get to about 1/8" before falling away.  These adjustments change over time as parts wear.  Correcting this adjustment and many others is the process called "regulation":
https://ptg.org/resources-pianoOwners-regulation.php

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with playing with the lid down.  Hard playing will eventually cause strings to break, especially if the hammers are worn so that a nearly flat surface is hitting them.  Reshaping them may help.  Playing hard with the left pedal down on a grand does increase the pressure on strings; please use it for softer passages.  Hard playing with the right pedal down can also cause string breakage, as the hammer may hit the string when it is already moving fast towards the hammer.

--Cy--

[hiline]

Yes, the leftmost pedal on both grands and uprights is the "una corda" or shift pedal.  Yes, it doesn't have much effect on uprights.

There's no real standard for the middle pedal on uprights.  On older pianos, it simply lifts the dampers for the bass section (like the right pedal), allowing you to play a melody without blurring it.  On many newer Asian pianos, the middle pedal drops a sheet of felt between the hammers and strings, giving a much quieter sound for practicing.  Here is the add-on version that another poster mentioned:
https://www.clicshop.com/Stores/thepianoshop/c49483p9623820.2.html

Here are some products to help quieten grand pianos:
https://www.pianosupply.com/acoustic/

You can have your piano adjusted to help you play quieter.  Play a note as slowly as you can, and see how close you can get the hammer to the strings.  It should get to about 1/8" before falling away.  These adjustments change over time as parts wear.  Correcting this adjustment and many others is the process called "regulation":
https://ptg.org/resources-pianoOwners-regulation.php

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with playing with the lid down.  Hard playing will eventually cause strings to break, especially if the hammers are worn so that a nearly flat surface is hitting them.  Reshaping them may help.  Playing hard with the left pedal down on a grand does increase the pressure on strings; please use it for softer passages.  Hard playing with the right pedal down can also cause string breakage, as the hammer may hit the string when it is already moving fast towards the hammer.

--Cy--

Thanks, that makes sense.

[ccr]

...

i tend to practice very long hours one day and then less on other days.  late at night is probably the most disturbing to most people.  when our home was being built, i made sure that we got insulation in all the walls around the music room.  BUT, there are two windows.  somewhat necessary for light - but i'm wondering if i put a heavy cloth or covering on them when i want to practice late if it would dampen the sound to the outside? 

  Hello,

  I think clothes would do little to avoid the transmission of sound outside, although they would avoid sound reflections in your own room. To avoid the sound transmiting outside you need very rigid materials (so that they don't vibrate in the same frecuencies that the music you are playing), and ideally many layers with different densitys.

  Carlos CR

[timothy42b]

I hate to say it but this is an ideal situation for a digital.

You may have to play with headphones to get full volume range.  Then you can set the master volume high and play loud or soft.

[donjuan]

I hate to say it but this is an ideal situation for a digital.

You may have to play with headphones to get full volume range.  Then you can set the master volume high and play loud or soft.

I do have a digital, and I do try to use in in this manner, from time to time.  However, using it all the time only hinders development of musicianship and technique ('all or nothing' sustain pedal,  discrepant touch vs. tone --even in the top-of-the-line digitals)  A real piano must be used, sooner or later.  Besides, no digital can match the dynamic range of a grand piano, so practicing on it only desensitizes the ear to be content with any sort of tone created.  You can be the crappiest pianist in the world and not realize it when playing on a digital, because the person who recorded the tones at the Roland factory or whatever is doing all the work for you. 

No, I find that digitals are most useful for learning notes late at night when everyone else sleeps, but nothing else.

[Derek]

just kill the people you are living with, then they won't mind the sound.

[Mozartian]

My problem: My family!  They live in the house too.  having a loud piano banging all the time is annoying, so I always played with the lid down, and I tended to use the una corda pedal when I am not supposed to (like, during fff ), just so the house is more livable for the people around me.

My most sincere and heartfelt empathy. I SOOOOO know what you're talking about.

*starts beethoven* *doors slam*

[letters]

hmmm our upright is over a hundred years old and its never broken a string i dont think! perhaps i ought to start playing some liszt....
haha i know what you talking about with the family getting fed up!!! dad said today "the piano is piercing my skull will you please stop"