Chopiabin: I would like to say that I really appreciate your civility and willingness to disagree without animosity, it makes debate more enjoyable, and is much better than the rash, immature comments also seen in this thread.
I still totally disagree with you about "truth," but I guess I have a little more respect for you since you don't believe in hell. My little quip about god's nonexistence was in anticipation of what I thought you were going to say.
Good, I was really hoping you weren't seriously thinking that that was a viable argument.
To me it still does not make sense. I know a super-christian family who is incredibly generous, kind, and faithful to Jesus. They used to have three daughters, two of whom were twins. One night, they were coming home from spring break, and they were on a small train thing. The two daughters kissed their mother goodnight and went to sit with their friens a few rows up. Then the train hit a truck that was on the tracks, and both daughters were burned to death. Why would a benevolent, all-powerful god allow something like that to happen? Did those two children deserve to die? They were not being "tempted" or anything, so obviously god killed them (if god controls all of nature then he is responsible for everything that happens).
This is certainly an unfortunate case of wrong place wrong time, but that is all. Ecclesiastes 9:11,12 says-
11:"I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforseen occurrence befall them all.
12:For man also does not know his time. Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly.
These scriptures say that even if things are looking good in our favor, we can never expect stability because "time and unforseen occurence befall them(us) all. I can think of no biblical account to support the idea that God controls nature on a continual basis
. Of course they didn't deserve to die, but even though they are dead, the bible gives their family hope they will be resurrected-1st. Corinthians chapter 15.
I will say one last time, God doesn't hurt anybody in any way. James 1:13 says:When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.
You did not respond to my thoughts on the origin of religion. In addition to what I said there, I would like to add why I think the older religions (the ones with human sacrifice) disappeared. I believe that no one wants to believe in something that is hard. No one wants to believe that you must kill your children to appease a god. Christianity does not require anyone to sacrifice anything material to god. All one has to do is believe in order to be "saved". I think compared to scarifice, that is relatively easy. That is why christianity has stayed around so long. It is some thing that people want to believe in; it's comforting. All one has to do is have faith, and all one's "sins" are erased, and there is no problem getting the reward of heaven. Essentially it removes all responsiblity from humans.
These are the real issues I would like you to address. Not whether or not god's actions are just, but whether or not god exists at all.
About religion: According to the bible, Adam and Eve were aware of their creators existence and likely had some knowledge of natural forces. They and their descendents until after the flood of Noah's day knew of the god that created them, and invented no other. during that time though, there was no established religion or organized worship of God. Needless to say, God would never request or expect human sacrifice from his servants, with the one exception of his test of Abraham. As for the rest, I really don't know what to say, except I don't think man invented God or religion but he has definitely perverted both.
As for Christianity: Some woud have you believe that all you have to do is accept Christ or whatever to attain heaven. This is not biblical. I will explain that at a later time if you wish.
THE REAL QUESTION: Does God exist or not?
Well, I will admit that this question plagued me for a long time. There is really no way to prove or disprove the existence of God. But there are signs that I think indicate a creator.
First, look at nature around you. I think that the likelihood that all of this came from nothing is very small. Think of intricate things such as a fingerprint or an insect. Can you honestly tell me that you can't believe they were created, or that they appeared out of something completely random?
Second, look at things that humans have that animal don't. Humans have the ability to ENJOY a wide variety of foods, smells and other sensory plesures, and intelligent conversation. the enjoyment of none of these things is nessecary to survival. I think it is more likely that we were created by a God who wants us to enjoy life.
One thing I often ask people who question the existence of God is this: Do YOU exist? Chopiabin, do YOU exist? Have you ever asked yourself this question? The obvious answer is that you do exist, but how do you really know? I wanted to say more, lots more, but it is 2:15 A.M. and I fear i'm becoming incoherrent. Maybe later....
Topic: Religious Debate Room Part Duex