la camp tech question

[contrapunctus]

Yeah!!! another la camp post!

actually, I am attemting to learn it and was wondering how to play a certain part. The hardest part of la camp for me is the beggining theme, where your right hand jumps between the melody and the D#. Whe I play this at speed, my right arm starts to feel like it is falling off, and I miss the D#. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a secret? I am not seeing how it is possible to move your arm that quickly and accurately for that amount of time without tireing your arm extensively.

[stevie]

play it like gould would

[m]

Yeah!!! another la camp post!

actually, I am attemting to learn it and was wondering how to play a certain part. The hardest part of la camp for me is the beggining theme, where your right hand jumps between the melody and the D#. Whe I play this at speed, my right arm starts to feel like it is falling off, and I miss the D#. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a secret?

No there is no any secret there. You are doing everything allright. Just don't miss D# and everything gonna be OK.

[maul]

Gould didn't play it nor did he like Liszt so why the hell are you even considering learning it? It's obviously a horrible piece if God doesn't like it. Blasphemy...

[maxy]

oh yeah, feel the love.... 

it's easy to accumulate tension in the jumps.  try this: work on fast jumps but in a very slow general tempo.  start from totally relaxed mode, ready to play first note, once you strike the first note jump as fast as possible to reach note #2 but don't play it yet.  so basically, before playing note #1, you anticipate and aim for note #2.  on arrival on note #2 (not yet played) get rid of all possible tension and aim for note #3.  once it is clear in your mind where you are heading next, this may take a few seconds,  boom!  play note #2 and you should be in place  to play #3(don't play yet).  each time you play a note, you are actually aiming for the next one.

sorry if this is not very clear.

There is no secret, train the body, train the mind and put all together.

[contrapunctus]

Gould didn't play it nor did he like Liszt so why the hell are you even considering learning it? It's obviously a horrible piece if God doesn't like it. Blasphemy...

If I could play fugues as well as Gould I would not be playing any romantic period stuff. However, since my pianistic abilities are not even close to matching the greatest pianist of all time's ability, I feel the need to play some flashy pieces.

Anyways, I it is very hard to concentrate on the accuracy of the jumps when one must also focus on the second hand. But, anyways, that is not my real problem. I can't jump with my arm at the speed of la camp for very long. My arm gets very tired and starts to hurt. I really don't want to have to sit there and practice jumps all day long.

[gruffalo]

well, you're going to have to. its not just handed over to you on a plate. All the tiredness simply comes from tension. you will just have to start it at snail pace, and gradually (best with metronome) increase the speed bit by bit, but you have to do repeats and make sure you are playing comfortably and relaxed for each speed that you go up. then after a certain point, you just have to start believing (once the tech stuff is done). it is the tension that is stopping you from hitting that note, so you have to train yourself to hit that note, and work off the tension.

[henrah]

oh yeah, feel the love....

it's easy to accumulate tension in the jumps. try this: work on fast jumps but in a very slow general tempo. start from totally relaxed mode, ready to play first note, once you strike the first note jump as fast as possible to reach note #2 but don't play it yet. so basically, before playing note #1, you anticipate and aim for note #2. on arrival on note #2 (not yet played) get rid of all possible tension and aim for note #3. once it is clear in your mind where you are heading next, this may take a few seconds, boom! play note #2 and you should be in place to play #3(don't play yet). each time you play a note, you are actually aiming for the next one.

sorry if this is not very clear.

There is no secret, train the body, train the mind and put all together.

That is the best method I have ever heard for learning the opening melody in La Campanella. Read and use that method Contrapuntus, I'm sure it will help. But make darn sure that before you aim and play the next note that you lose all tension in your arm. If you start doing this, then slowly speed it up, eventually you will come to the right tempo and your body/mind will be trained to release all tension as soon as the note is played, and so you won't be tense for the duration of the melody as it will be on/off/on/off etc. However, I'm starting to think that that might lead to repetitive strain injury, but that might only be from constant tension. I don't quite know. Just aim for not tension at all, and just moving the arm as fast as possible. Try moving your arm from note to note but without playing them, and don't move your hand or fingers, just your arm. Try swinging it back and forth whilst concentrating as hard as possible on not creating any tension.
Henrah

[musicsdarkangel]

practice slowly, but throw your arm really fast at the high D sharp

you will miss at first, but with practice, it becomes cake.

[Motrax]

The piece of advice that helped me most in learnin gto play the piece was to make each jump at a generous angle - instead of keeping the RH as close as you can to the keyboard, let it move between the melody and D# with a ~30 degree arc. Practice slowly with a large arc, and as you increase speed, the arc will naturally become smaller, but you'll be able to remain more relaxed.

Don't get discouraged - it could take quite a long while before you're able to play the skips fluidly. Good luck!

- M

[contrapunctus]

Thank's for the replies.

[gruffalo]

another thing you can do is play the jumps an octave higher. either jump an extra octave, or play both hands an octave further down the piano, ie. left hand further left down the piano, RH further right down the piano. then play at the normal position, with the jumps going an extra octave. but all this has to be done with the other pieces of advice given about tension. but dont over practise at different octaves, because you dont want to get used to it, you just want to be able to feel easier when playing at the normal level.

[contrapunctus]

I have another problem. I was practicing the right hand and my arm started to hurt really bad. Even now, several hours later, my elbow and tricep hurt terribly bad, very painful. It feels like tennis elbow.

[bearzinthehood]

I have another problem. I was practicing the right hand and my arm started to hurt really bad. Even now, several hours later, my elbow and tricep hurt terribly bad, very painful. It feels like tennis elbow.

What do you want to hear?  The obvious answer is stop practicing this piece, you don't have the correct technique for it.

[henrah]

What do you want to hear? The obvious answer is stop practicing this piece, you don't have the correct technique for it.

I think he'd like to hear a reason for this, and why it came about.

Contra, I think you were tensing the upper arm whilst doing the octave jumps, and the more you moved it the more it hurt the elbow. Atleast that's what methinks. Have you been playing tennis lately?

[gruffalo]

you dont have to play tennis to get tennis elbow.

[donjuan]

Yeah!!! another la camp post!

actually, I am attemting to learn it and was wondering how to play a certain part. The hardest part of la camp for me is the beggining theme, where your right hand jumps between the melody and the D#. Whe I play this at speed, my right arm starts to feel like it is falling off, and I miss the D#. Am I doing something wrong? Is there a secret? I am not seeing how it is possible to move your arm that quickly and accurately for that amount of time without tireing your arm extensively.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,16459.msg176248.html#msg176248

"Why don't you play some good music, say, some Bach or Haydn?"
 

[bearzinthehood]

I think he'd like to hear a reason for this, and why it came about.

The reason is he's not ready for this piece.  Telling him anything else is irresponsible.

[pita bread]

The harshness of this topic 

[contrapunctus]

The reason is he's not ready for this piece.  Telling him anything else is irresponsible.

I am not seeing how you could possibly know if I am not ready to play la camp. I have only stated that my arm hurts when I do the jumps over an extended period time. From this thread I have learned that I must not be relaxed enough in my shoulders and arm. I don't know how you gather that I am not ready for this piece.

 

[bearzinthehood]

You know what, if you have to come to a message board and ask why your arm is in severe pain after attempting this piece then I can be fairly confident that you are not ready for this very difficult piece.

[lostinidlewonder]

The initial jumps should be controlled with Guiding Fingers. A guiding finger is a finger that does not play but controls a particular point so that the hand may relax when undergoing a motion. For example when we play the rapid repeition of D# I like to feel the Bb (just before the upper D#) underneath the 3rd (if I use 5, but if i use 4 to strike the upper note i feel the 2nd above the Bb). Question if you want to strike this top note with the 5th or 4th, the 4th has usually more reach in most peoples hands than the 5th.

To reduce the amount of tension in the entire arm one should use a "guiding finger" to maintain natural form (Chopin natural form) thus increasing control, since if a hand keeps changing form it increases the difficulty of a piece hence increases also tension in the hand.

You should not try to move to the notes by the fingers but with a waving motion almost which pivots at the elbow. If your Right shoulders are moving as you play the opening then you are moving inefficiently. It is almost as if you are waving goodbye with a flexible wrist, bending at the elbow but the rest of the body is relaxed and uneffected by the movement. When you are at the left most extreme of the wave (moving down the keyboard) you should feel the weight of the thumb (almost as if it drags the hand across) , when you are at the right most extreme of the wave (moving up the keyboard) you should feel the guiding finger and the finger playing the upper D#.

[contrapunctus]

Thank you for the help.

[gruffalo]

when i take a step up in repertoire (in terms of difficulty) i usually get back pains. my teacher used to say that because I am not used to the practice length and difficulty of these pieces, my back muscles arent used to it either and will find it a strain. i think its more a matter of learning to relax all over again at each level of difficulty. i am not going to say whether he is or isnt ready for la camp, but i will say that everyone finds some sort of pain or difficulty when stepping up a level in repertoire, and that pain just needs to be worked on and eradicated. if every time people say he is not ready, when in pain, he wont get anywhere. we all have to work on something that is technically straining, otherwise we wouldnt get any better at the piano. however a line needs to be drawn where this person is simply not ready, but we cant possibly do that when we havent seen him attempt this piece or play other pieces.

[bearzinthehood]

There should never, ever be any pain.  Ever.

[mike_lang]

If it helps, some of the opening can be distributed between the hands.

[shoenberg3]

I can only give you one and only tip: relax your arm and everything will be fine.

[stevie]

There should never, ever be any pain.  Ever.

yes, but there should be fatigue, and some people may think their fatigue is pain, fatigue is good, pain is bad.

[bearzinthehood]

yes, but there should be fatigue, and some people may think their fatigue is pain, fatigue is good, pain is bad.

QFT