Can anyone here bend their 5th finger independently?

[aragonaise]

I've seen a friend who can bend his 5th finger (to touch his palm) with the 4th finger totally unaffected by the bending movement. And that is something which most ppl cannot do. Is this the holy grail of finger independence that all pianists have been striving to achieve?

Anyone here can do that? Why can't I?

[tompilk]

nah.. horowitz does it but he didnt do it on purpose... he just did it... nothing special... (at least i heard this in an interview or something...)
Tom

[steve jones]

I can bend my 5th to about a 90 degree angle before the 4th moves.

[acha114]

I've seen a friend who can bend his 5th finger (to touch his palm) with the 4th finger totally unaffected by the bending movement. And that is something which most ppl cannot do. Is this the holy grail of finger independence that all pianists have been striving to achieve?

Anyone here can do that? Why can't I?

I can with my left hand, but not with my right.

[casparma]

I think the limit of flexibility you can achieve is really bound to your genes....

I think I have the most unflexible hands in the world.... I just dont know why, I can only bend my 4 fingers backwards to about only 30 degrees.... Most people can at least do 90, right?


btw, is it normal only to be able to bend fingers backwards to about 30 degrees?

[hans]

I can do it - but I have to use the other hand for it ...

But I don't think that such Hodini-like abilities are so important for your way in the concert halls of this world ;-)


Greetings
Hans

[cosine]

.....

[henrah]

I can touch my palm with my fifth finger on the same hand without the fourth finger moving. (I don't see what's so special about that though.)

I don't know if it's special to anyone else, but it certainly is to me! I can't move my fifth at all (forwards that is. I can move it sideways - infact I can do the vulcan greeting [you know, the splitting of the second&third and fourth&fifth] in both hands alternating....ehheh tis quite fun ) without there being some movement in my fourth.

I just found out something really rare!!! If I bend my fifth, whilst trying to keep my fourth still, it bends at the very last joint but keeps straight at the other joints and knuckle, until a certain point where it can't hack it any longer and suddenly bends....tis rare. I should film it and post it so you can see, it's real freaky....

Also my fourth on each hand is a little bit pregnant i.e. the first joint sticks out a bit palm side; and my fifth also moulds perfectly against my fourth. I can also bend my fifth on my left hand across my fourth and in between my second and third. My second and third fingers then hold it there and it leaves me fourth to bend freely. I can do a great snake shaddow puppet with this
Henrah

[cosine]

.....

[henrah]

Well it means that they don't have to work to get that independence: they already have it. For me, whenever my fifth plays a white note, it is really hard for my fourth to play the adjacent black note in a fast run evenly as when my fifth moves to play the white note, my fourth gets lowered closer to the black note, thus having less distance to travel to play the note. This means, in a run like the beginning of Flight of the Bumblebee, it sounds sloppy. My fourth and fifth are kind of tied together slightly, and I find it extremely hard to trill in those fingers, or even move them fast enough to play most of the runs I find. Fifth on its own is fine, but when coupled with my fourth it becomes sloppy and lame.
Henrah

[maul]

I just found out something really rare!!! If I bend my fifth, whilst trying to keep my fourth still, it bends at the very last joint but keeps straight at the other joints and knuckle, until a certain point where it can't hack it any longer and suddenly bends....tis rare. I should film it and post it so you can see, it's real freaky....

I don't think that's rare. The same thing happens to me.

[chiyo]

If you look at your arm muscles (Extensor Digitorum), you'll see your fourth finger is connected to third and fifth by tendons.  Natural thing if you can't bend just the 5th finger.  Maybe your friends' tendons are not fused? 

[adodd81802]

Thought i'd bring this up again rather than new topic.

I like others can do this in my left hand but not my right. I think it makes my right hand a little sloppy in some areas between the 3/4/5

Has anybody been in this situation where overtime they were able to even out the right hand.

To elaborate further, when I bring my right pinky down, I feel it kind of dislocate from the join to leave the 4th up, where as I don't feel that in the right hand.

UPDATE
Funny I was thinking about this today as it's still sort of giving problems. Thought i'd attempt to re-resurrect yet again to see if there any responses. Can the biology my 2 hands be different?

My Left little finger can sort of dis-joint itself from the hand to fold in, this break between the 4th/5th finger allows a huge amount more dexterity in the 4th finger on the left hand, I can easily hold down 1,2,5 and trill the 3/4 with little stress.

However in my right hand it's the absolute opposite. I have almost 0 control over the 4th and it's very sloppy. I do practice exercises to improve, but I feel we can't change biology, though as frustrating as it may be.

[adodd81802]

See my updated post

[feddera]

I had the exact same problem. When playing scales HT I never had a problem with the 3/4/5 on my left hand, but my right hand felt weak and sloppy turning from ascending to descending. I then spent several hours each day for many weeks searching for the "magical movement" the left hand had to be doing that made it so easy and natural. As it turned out, there was no magical movement. My left hand fingers simply were much more flexible than my right hand fingers.

The good news is that you can fix this imbalance if you work on it. The bad news is that it takes time... much longer than I anticipated. It has now taken me 2 years to get my right hand 95% as flexible as my left (starting at maybe 50%). If you're young then maybe you'll be able to do it faster (I'm 29).

If you want I can give you more details on exercises I did etc.

[anamnesis]

Thought i'd bring this up again rather than new topic.

I like others can do this in my left hand but not my right. I think it makes my right hand a little sloppy in some areas between the 3/4/5

Has anybody been in this situation where overtime they were able to even out the right hand.

To elaborate further, when I bring my right pinky down, I feel it kind of dislocate from the join to leave the 4th up, where as I don't feel that in the right hand.

UPDATE
Funny I was thinking about this today as it's still sort of giving problems. Thought i'd attempt to re-resurrect yet again to see if there any responses. Can the biology my 2 hands be different?

My Left little finger can sort of dis-joint itself from the hand to fold in, this break between the 4th/5th finger allows a huge amount more dexterity in the 4th finger on the left hand, I can easily hold down 1,2,5 and trill the 3/4 with little stress.

However in my right hand it's the absolute opposite. I have almost 0 control over the 4th and it's very sloppy. I do practice exercises to improve, but I feel we can't change biology, though as frustrating as it may be.

It depends on how you do the exercise and what you think is useful. 

I can do this in such a way that feels painless, but is too independent of a free arm in order to be rhythmically absorbed. Lifting of the fingers is done more actively by the finger extensors and maybe some use of the keys/piano mechanism. The balance feels static and more vertical rather than horizontal.

----

The other way is also painless but has the arm supported behind each note, but momentum is carried it by a free upper arm acting and feeling like a pendulum . The fingers are precisely timed with the action of the arm when the arm is precisely in the right spot so that the fingers always have perfect leverage. (If the fingers ever get ahead of the arm before that perfect moment it feels more like the above at least in that instant.)   

Lifting of the fingers is done more actively by the forearm and its interaction with the piano mechanism. Finger action is primarily active only using the flexors. The balance feels more dynamic and horizontal (that's redirected elliptically but very precisely).

Initially the arm will go all over the place, but there's a very precise path it has to run through that keeps the motion going perpetually and accounts for the different length and heights of fingers 3 and 4.   

There's a higher learning curve for this, but it makes up for deficiencies in just the fingers or hands themselves because manipulation of distance and leverage is done by a precisely trained and timed coordination with the arm. Differences between hands/arms become more a result of imperfect coordination. (The opposite has to be mirror image of the other hand/arm, and thinking and coordinating precisely in reverse directions in multiple dimensions is not always intuitive.) 

[feddera]

To anamnesis: two statements. Do you reject one, both or neither?

1) You can improve the flexibility of your fingers.

2) This will make playing the piano easier.

[anamnesis]

To anamnesis: two statements. Do you reject one, both or neither?

1) You can improve the flexibility of your fingers.

2) This will make playing the piano easier.

Statement 1 is true.

Statement 2 is true, but can be negligible at a certain point.  There's a point of limiting returns, where any improvements made in flexibility simply do not override deficiencies in other areas.  The main gains involved are when there is actual notable restricted flexibility. 

[adodd81802]

thanks for your posts.. Interestingly (good description by the way) @anamnesis I actually think I do this already. RE Forearm support. However a problem I face with this is for the right hand in particular I think I rely on this too much.. that is to say I may have lazy fingers, and while at slower heavier music that's negligible, at faster lighter speeds it's very noticeable when my forearm is bringing the fingers down like 5 hammers to nails.

Chopin's Op 64 waltz ... Leggiero? More like Forte... -_-

The second problem (and slightly off topic, but in response to your suggestion) I don't know how to do it. That is to say, my right hand does this but my left hand does not. I can probably work on the right hand, with holding note exercises (which I have been) which limits my rotation and forearm support forcing the fingers to do more work... My right hand 100% feels supported by a dropping forearm. My left hand feels like all the work is in the fingers alone. This becomes strenuous when I want to play anything at higher speeds in the left hand, because the fingers alone cannot do the task. (flexible, but like most left hands, less developed) In fact everything is missing in my left hand and I can feel the difference, no rotation, no forearm support, have I an adopted hand!!

I've been practicing some holding note exercises, just little 5 note things at the piano, while holding the little finger down, and will continue to do so to see if this increases. I hate biology.

[anamnesis]

thanks for your posts.. Interestingly (good description by the way) @anamnesis I actually think I do this already. RE Forearm support. However a problem I face with this is for the right hand in particular I think I rely on this too much.. that is to say I may have lazy fingers, and while at slower heavier music that's negligible, at faster lighter speeds it's very noticeable when my forearm is bringing the fingers down like 5 hammers to nails.

Chopin's Op 64 waltz ... Leggiero? More like Forte... -_-

The second problem (and slightly off topic, but in response to your suggestion) I don't know how to do it. That is to say, my right hand does this but my left hand does not. I can probably work on the right hand, with holding note exercises (which I have been) which limits my rotation and forearm support forcing the fingers to do more work... My right hand 100% feels supported by a dropping forearm. My left hand feels like all the work is in the fingers alone. This becomes strenuous when I want to play anything at higher speeds in the left hand, because the fingers alone cannot do the task. (flexible, but like most left hands, less developed) In fact everything is missing in my left hand and I can feel the difference, no rotation, no forearm support, have I an adopted hand!!

I've been practicing some holding note exercises, just little 5 note things at the piano, while holding the little finger down, and will continue to do so to see if this increases. I hate biology.

Although we can have forearm support. We can have "mistimed" forearm support when trying to coordinate it with finger articulation.

There's a certain timing that makes a distinction between the vertical and horizontal elements of playing.  When I say "perfect leverage", it's not just about strength, but also knowing you will have full control of the key. (ie, you can slow the key down), and also not letting it interfere with the horizontal progression or the speed and timing of the horizontal progression.

Making a distinction between the timings involved and how they interact allows facility with full dynamic control. Not making the distinction it what causes forte-only playing when needing to play fast. 

---------

This idea is probably best felt in voicing exercises with a progression of intervals. 

When voicing, during the vertical actions for intervals, the fingers can actually go at different speeds (imagine two faucets pouring at different rates) and still feel as one unified action for the interval; however, it is also done in such a way that you are automatically send on top of the next interval in a balanced state where you have perfect control.   You will find that there might actually be a "delay" in the arm getting in the right spot so that you have perfect control with the fingers for their vertical articulation.

 Another problem is focusing on the vertical articulation, but then not automatically being sent horizontally.  Another is, not actually sending it to consistently to the right spot, which is where most of sloppiness or lack of facility in voicing occurs. You have to imagine exactly where on the keys you are sending it to.

---------

Symmetric inversion exercises after mapping out exactly what the other hand is doing is useful for training the other hand.  The more precisely you know or can "label" what the "model" hand is doing, the more easily you will be able to transfer it to the other hand because it has to be a precise mirror image.

One thing to check is if both hands are equally using pronation to their advantage in different registers.  (Overpronate on the thumb nail and elastically release. It's better to overdo how much you go on the thumb nail, than not do it at all. If you want, you can use it to practice getting the 5th finger on top of the right spot as an accessory exercise.)

There's typically more "restriction" and less freedom in the upper arm as you progress toward registers that the the other arm normally plays, or there's lack of coordination simply because the other arm is not used to doing it. You normally have to readjust the torso and how you balance on the seat as you get to unfamiliar registers.   
 

[nw746]

Related question: my pinky sticks out when playing five finger exercises even when I'm trying to keep it bent—notably it tends to "pop out" whenever the five finger exercise gets to the middle finger. How do you get it to stop doing that?

Specifically in this exercise, although I notice it all the time when playing as well (and sometimes when doing other things like typing on the computer). I'm at the moment playing the exercise very slowly resting my fingernails on the keys to maintain a fixed position of the hand, and even then it happens sometimes, because my hand position is never really fixed—the wrist moves noticeably even when I'm trying to keep it still. The 4th finger on my left hand is also very unwilling to leave its assigned key if I'm holding my 3rd finger down and is almost impossible to control rhythmically—it doesn't feel like I have any muscular control over that finger and I'm just manipulating it by sending signals to the 3rd finger and hoping it gets confused—but that might just not be a solvable problem, whereas the fifth finger sticking out like I'm a nouveau-riche tea drinker definitely seems like something that can be fixed.

[brogers70]

I'd say. First play that exercise very, very slowly. Relax your hand as much as possible. Don't try to keep your hand and wrist completely immobile - that will increase tension. Don't worry about trying to keep all your fingers lightly touching the surface of the keys, that also may increase tension. Unless your anatomy is quite unusual it's not the shared extensor tendon on 3 and 4 that will make the exercise hard, it's simply getting your brain used to ordering the fingers around individually. Any muscular tension increases the chances that signals will get crossed between different fingers, so keep your hand as relaxed as possible and play slowly. You are definitely not trying to "stretch" or "loosen" anything; you're just training your brain to be more specific in the signals it sends down to your muscles. That's what my teacher would tell me, anyway. Good luck. Relaxing everything will also help the nouveau-riche tea drinker thing, too.

[nw746]

Thanks! Really wish I could afford a teacher haha (or had a friend to tutor me... had one who offered but of course he's in Australia now). I was doing it at about a Moderato but I've gone right down to Adagio for the left hand especially, playing slightly détaché but otherwise as relaxed as possible with all the volume coming from the forearm, and I think after about five minutes my pinky is sticking up after playing less than it used to. So, progress.

I actually didn't know the 3rd and 4th fingers shared a tendon but looking it up now, they totally do. I always assumed I was just bad at piano. Huh.