difference bet. sonata form and sonata allegro form?

[crazy for ivan moravec]

has anyone of you read a book that says the "sonata form" is not exactly the same as the "sonata-allegro form"? anyone who can share?

[pianorama]

What exactly makes a sonata a sonata?

[gorbee natcase]

It is a sleep aid just like alchohol or sleeping tablets. If you don't believe me click here

https://www.sonata.com/sonatanow/

 

It is an extended piece of music with USUALY 3 movements, fast, slow, fast, and is not always restricted to one instrument. A typical sonata would be i.e. Mozart k545.

Generaly small chamber ensemble in size

[jason2711]

sonata form though is different... not all movements of a sontata are in sonata form.. particularly 2nd movements in the classical period, or many of the romantic/modern sonatas.

Sonata form as far as I know consists of an Enunciation, Development and Recapitulation.  No idea what a sonata allegro form is.  It isn't just a sonata form, but faster, is it? 

[brahmsian]

As far as I know they are the same with regards to form. jason2711 is right with the Exposition, Development and Recapualation. Sonata-allegro form (I believe) refers to specifically to the first movement of a work. The first movements of most piano sonatas and symphonies follow sonata (allegro) form. However, when talking about 'sonata form' one is not restricted to only speaking about the first movement of a work. Someone could easily write a short, one movement work that follows sonata form.

This is how I've always used the terms...... somebody correct me if I'm wrong about something.

[BoliverAllmon]

sonata allegro form is the before mentioned ABA form while sonata form is a three mvt form with the first mvt being in sonata allegro form, the second a menuet or some other slower form, and the third mvt. a faster sonata allegro, scherzo, or rondo.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

sonata allegro form is the before mentioned ABA form while sonata form is a three mvt form with the first mvt being in sonata allegro form, the second a menuet or some other slower form, and the third mvt. a faster sonata allegro, scherzo, or rondo.

yeah, this makes so much sense. or in fact, it might be correct. does grove's say this?
 
ok, the reason why i'm asking this is because my teacher in classical literature (3 years ago) got me all confused because he insisted that sonata form and sonata allegro form are forms which are used in first movements and in the 3rd too. but both forms are NOT exactly the same....

but right now, i have to consult him again (of course, without him knowing that i'm posting this here).

next time i shall have the diagram and show you what "difference" he's trying to say.

i'm not so sure how true or correct is what he's saying, that's why i'm asking you guys coz for all i know, it might be in fact correct... and i never knew all these years. apparently, it seems that it's not that factual.

[pianalex]

academic sonata movement form is;

exposition: in tonic = 'A' tonic>bridge> 'B' dominant>codetta to close in dominant:
 
development: variety of keys and themes>

recapitulation: 'A' tonic>bridge>'B' tonic>:

Coda: affirm tonic close.

In practice almost every sonata movement of any interest modifies this formula to a greater or lesser degree.

A sonata as an overall piece usually has at least one movement usually the first in this form, but confusingly may have none such as beethovens earlier Ab essay in the form.  In fact the word comes form italian 'suonare' meaning simply 'to sound'.

[pianistimo]

from dr. murray sterlings notes on 'music of the late 18th and early 19th century'  - i have this :

'sonata form is the most important developmental form - indeed, for music of the common practice period, it is the most important form.  this design is also sometimes referred to as sonata-allegro form, but this is a less-than-perfect term in that it implies the formal type (sonata-allegro) can be used only in a movement in a fast, or allegro tempo, and this is not the case.  sonata form is a better choice, but it should never be confused with the genre term 'sonata.'

then he goes on to explain what someone already explained here about the expo, dev, and recap.  'the exposition and recap will each include a primary theme or theme group (P), a transition (T) that produces great energy and modulates to a secondary key, a secondary theme or theme group (S) is in the new key, and a closing section (K) that may be thematic, but normally functions as an extended cadential passage.  developmental techniques can occur anywhere in the form, but are most commonly associated with the mid-section or development area.  the development will conclude with a retransition area (RT) that will lead back to the tonic for the beginning of the recapitulation.  unlike the exposition, in the recapitulation both the primary theme (P) and the secondary theme (S) are found in the tonic key.'

he goes on to say 'sonatina form is frequently employed in overtures or descriptive single-movement orchestral compositions.  it is essentially the same as a sonata form EXCEPT that the development is truncated to include only the retransition (RT).'

and, 'concerto form is used in the first movements of concertos of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries.  this structure has often been described as a sonata form with two different expositions (the first for the orchestra alone and the second adding the soloist).  you may even encounter the term 'double-exposition sonata form,' but i would prefer that you not use this term.  naturally, concerto form will also include passages designed for virtuoso display by the soloist that are not normally found in a traditional sonata form.'

[prometheus]

There is a difference between a three or four movement piece called 'sonata' and the individual forms of these movements.

Sonata-allergro doesnt mean ABA, on the contrary. It means ABC where the A and C are still similar because they will largely share the same key, the function will be totally different where in an ABA form the second A is just a repeat of the first.

Finally, there isn't a sonata form, there are sonata forms.

[pianistimo]

i disagree with your second paragraph (but not dramatically - see my last couple of paragraphs on the next message).  the same A themes are used and therefore make it an ABA form.  that's what differs between classical music and romantic (through- composed).  otherwise, what you said about the genre sonata being different from sonata form(s) is correct.  good point about there being many forms.

statement, contrast, and repetition of statement (ABA) is the broad level of change.  but, my teacher (dr. murray) pointed out that within the A section you can have the same principles functioning at the phrase level to create a pattern based on statement , repetition, contrast, repetition of contrast ... (aa, bb) the small 'a' section may have a statement and contrast that are written (x + y).  upper-case letters represent the sectional level, and small-case letters the phrase level, and small-case x's and y's at the sub-phrase level. 

also, something that he points out is that usually when you get to the B section - the melody may be in a register other than that of the A section; the key or mode of the B section might change; the contrasting section might be placed in 3/4 while the A section is in 2/4 or there may be smaller rhythmic values used in the contrasting section; the B section may include a countermelody which does not appear in either of the flanking A sections; or the A section may be played by strings with winds added for contrast only in the B section.  any or all of these changes (and many others) might be used to create the sense of contrast that is the deciding factor of the particular form we are trying to identify. 

[pianistimo]

here's a list of the forms that i have (many people already have this in their textbooks, but it's kind of helpful if you are quickly  looking to analyze a particular genre).

one part form (AA) is based on statement and repetition or statement and variation (A, A1)
many vocal songs carry this form and it is called 'strophic or modified strophic' if referring to vocal repertoire.

two part (binary) form is based on statement and contrast (AB or AA BB or A B A B).  occasionally, in a binary form a portion of the opening A unit reappears at the end; this is termed 'rounded binary.' in early music these forms are used in varying patterns of statement and repetition in connection with the various poetic forms (formes fixes = virelais, rondeau, and ballade).  the french overture form is a special type of binary structure whose first section is characterized by dotted rhythms in a relatively slow tempo while the second section begins with imitative counterpoint in a faster tempo; there is a possible return of the style of the opening section at the end of the second section.  this structure is most characteristic of the baroque era.

three-part (ternary) form  (ABA or A B A1)
minuet and trio form is a special type of ternary form used in dances, dance movements of symphonies, sonatas, and suites; in this particular type o f ABA form, the A section is referred to as 'the minuet' and the B section the 'trio.'

da capo form is yet another type of ternary form used only in vocal arias (from operas, oratorios, cantatas, passion, etc.) in this special application of the ternary principle, the A section is subdivided into five smaller units (opening orchestral ritornello, voice section, mid orchestral ritornello, voice, closing orchestral ritornello).  after a contrasting mid section (B), the A section returns with the understanding that the singer will improvise embellishments to what is written by the composer.  a variant of da capo form is the dal segno form in which the return of the A section is truncated by the omission of the opening ritornello. 

rondo form is based on statement, contrast, and repetition (A B A C A or A B A C A D A pr A B A C A B A).  the principal statement section (A) is called the refrain and the contrasting sections (B, C) are couplets or digressions.  in a rondo, there are various possibilities for the number of sections and their relationship to one another.  to be considered a rondo, usually there are at least three refrains and two couplets.  a special type of rondo, the french rondo, has the pattern A B A C A D A E.

ritornello form is a form in which contrast is offerred not only through the presentation of new thematic material, but also new color and texture.  ritornello form is used primarily in fast movements of baroque concertos.  in this formal type, sections in which the full orchestra play (called tutti or ripieno sections) alternate with sections in which the soloist or the solo group play (solo sections).  thus the contrast is one of instrumentation, color, size, texture, etc.  units within a ritornello form are labeled as first tutti (T1), first solo (S1), second tutti (S2), etc.

variation form is based on statement and variation.  this is a referential form.  the composer starts with a theme and the subsequent form then results from his providing variations on that theme.  the theme itself may be original with the composer or may be borrowed from teh works of another composer or a folk tune.  each variation will retain some feature of the theme (normally the harmonic pattern or the phrase structure), but will provide variation in other elements. 

the passacaglia and chaconne are special types of variation forms.  in these formal types the theme itself repeats along with its variations. the term used to describe repetition of a theme is 'ostinato,' and sometimes passacaglia and chaconne are considered types of ostinato forms. 

developmental forms  (perhaps this is what prometheus was trying to say - sonata form not being necessarily an exact A B A form since the A section themes are thoroughly in the key when they return -- but in my own experience it is usually just labeled A - even though it would more adequately be called 'developmental form' instead of sonata form).  so thanks, prometheus for suggesting an alternative label (which dr. murray has done with 'developmental form')

anyway, 'developmental forms' include:

sonata form
sonata allegro form
sonatina form
and concerto form

will add a few more forms later - copying this from dr. murray's writings.

[mig]

Sonata Allegro and Sonata forms are the same thing, as far as I understand. Sonata as in Beethoven Sonata, is the Sonata genre, which is entierly different. Sonata form consists of Exposition, Development, and Recapitulation. There are 2 groups in the exposition and the recapitulation. In the expo, the first is in the tonic and the second, usually, in the dominant, or in the relative major, if the the key is minor, or in any other contrasting key. In the recapitulation, both groups are in the tonic. 

[prometheus]

i disagree with your second paragraph.

But it is essential to the definition of a sonata-allegro in contrast with the other forms.

The sonata-allegro has an exposition, development and recapitulation. That means ABC, period. If you do not understand this you do not understand musical forms and you do not know what a sonata-allegro is.

[pianistimo]

if you look at most sonata forms - the 'A' theme returns and does not modulate in the recapitulation.  perhaps you are referring to twentieth century sonata form (sonata allegro being an out-of-date term for that unless it is a combo of old forms with new music).  haven't played much scriabin, etc. - so perhaps in these 'sonatas' there are more differences in the recapitulation?  please enlighten me.  i'm open to what you are saying.

[arensky]

But it is essential to the definition of a sonata-allegro in contrast with the other forms.

The sonata-allegro has an exposition, development and recapitulation. That means ABC, period. If you do not understand this you do not understand musical forms and you do not know what a sonata-allegro is.

The letters "A" "B" "A" refer to the thematic material contained in the exposition, development and recapitulation. Yes you are correct in stating that the recapitulation is different from the exposition, and therefore something else. BUT they use the same thematic materials, altered slightly, in the case of Beethoven more than slightly. To call something "C" in this context implies Rondo form, a section that uses entirely different thematic material from A and B.

These letters signify the thematic material used in a section of musical form. Not the section itself. This is understood by trained musicians around the world.
 

[pianistimo]

that's how i understand sonata form (sonata-allegro form).  here's a diagram (you have to scroll down to 'sonata form' to see it.  it's an easy explaination without using letters and i find it interesting that they use sonata form and sonata-allegro form interchangeably (even though sonata-allegro form is misleading since it doesn't have to be an 'allegro' tempo):

www.laco.org/glossaryPage.html

'through-composed' is a term that comes to mind with a form like a fantasy or something.  ABC...as nothing fully returns (maybe a few bars or so - but -mostly different).  perhaps even 'through-composed' isn't as apt a term as 'form-less  patterns.'  this is what category my prof. put: fantasia, choral fantasia, toccata, prelude, impromptu, and etude.

[pianistimo]

i guess the only forms that i left out from the above pages from notes are the 'contrapuntal forms.'  they would be identified with units set off from one another by changes in various elements or materials of music.  (points of articulation).  the logic is no longer vertical as much as horizontal and there are various 'levels' of the texture.  their logic is much less rigid than sectional forms.

canon = a structure defined by the relationships of its component levels of texture termed 'voices.'  in a canon, all voices are derived from the first voice to enter, which is termed the 'dux' (leader).  other voices are the same as the dux, but they begin later and have overlapping entrances with it.  this technique is called imitation.  the imitating voice or voices in a canon are called the 'comes.'

don't know why i am bothering to type al this except that it reminds me of what i learned.  form is a very unique thing to the structure of music.  it's like drawing an outline in architecture.  you have the golden mean - and then so many many forms outside of that.  a fugue is like a nave to me (+)  is that the correct term?  you have things happening in both directions (voicing and chordal).  it must be the hardest of forms to learn to compose in (although very intruiging and probably easier once the idea of how to form the 'dux' is learned.

anyway - fugue = like a canon is based on imitation.  the difference, however, is that while imitation in the canon is strict and continuous from beginning to end with no alternation or interruptions, the fugue imitation is handled more as a technique or device applied in a freer and more flexible manner.  the 'fugal exposition' is the portion where the principal theme of the fugue (subject) is presented in each of the various levels of texture.  the second statement of the subject (countersubject) is normally presented as counterpoint to it.  these two will then function as a polyphonic combination throughout the rest of the composition.  most fugues unfold by alternating 'mid-expositions' (in which one hears at least one full statement of the subject) with 'episodes' (in which there is no full reference to the subject, although a motive from it may be used).

fugato = a composition in a form other than a fugue may have a short passage that is similar to the exposition of a fugue.  that would be a fugato.  not to be confused with 'fughetta' which is referring to a short fugue. 

[pianistimo]

getting back to the idea of classifying the sections - i think in the harvard dictionary of music it says something like binary forms are open (in that they can end in a different key) whereas ternary forms usually are closed (ending in the same key they began with). 

now, in twentieth century music - i suppose that one could end a 'sonata form' with an A or C section depending on if A= theme completely returns, it is in the tonic, and doesn't have an unmanageably lengthy coda    C might = theme only slightly returns, lots of new material, it doesn't end in the tonic, and has a lengthy ending?  this is just speculation on my part - and wonder if anyone can enlighten me as to how some 20th century (1st movement) sonatas are built?  maybe then it would be 'formless?'

[prometheus]

Sure, often material from the exposition is heard again in the recapitulation. But this doesn't have to be the case per se and it doesn't have to be the main theme. Also the theme can be changed. The point is, would you call the beginning and ending of a story A and A?

The recaputilation just isn't a re-exposition. I think that every book will label a sonata-allegro as ABC. *Takes Charles Rosen's Sonata Forms out of his bookself*

The point of the sonata-allegro is to create a story like plot arch. When large scale absolute(instrumental abstract) music became popular they wanted to create this plot arch or tension arch. So the recaputilation would be as similar to the development as the part after the final resolution in a story would be similar to the beginning.

So in the recaputilation we should turn home but it should be different. It should be changed, after all we/it went through the whole deveopment section. How this can be achieved is a 'problem' for the composer.