Trying to Copy Glenn Gould

[steveie986]

I've been listening to Gould's GV night and day for the past few weeks. I'm learning the piece right now and trying to imitate the sound of his 1981 interpretation as much as I can (I'm also sitting on a folding deck chair while playing and humming copiously). However, I've heard his interpretation is musically unconventional, or perhaps even "incorrect" whatever the hell that means. There are a few passages where he clearly disobeys the staccatos and dynamics, but I feel they are minor. Can someone explain the main differences between his interpretation and other more "traditional" interpretations? Even better: can someone recommend some recordings that are good but very different from Gould's?

[quantum]

Angela Hewitt.  I'd describe it as very intelligent Bach playing.

[Kassaa]

NEVER. COPY. WELL. KNOWN. RECORDINGS.

They are well known and unique for a reason.

[bwv772]

Even better: can someone recommend some recordings that are good but very different from Gould's?

Chinese pianist Zhi Xiao-Mei has done a wonderful interpretation.

[ahinton]

Yonty Solomon - although, sadly, you will have to take my word for this (or not, as the case may be), since he has yet to record it, despite having performed it often throughout his career.

Best,

Alistair

[donjuan]

I've been listening to Gould's GV night and day for the past few weeks. I'm learning the piece right now and trying to imitate the sound of his 1981 interpretation as much as I can (I'm also sitting on a folding deck chair while playing and humming copiously). However, I've heard his interpretation is musically unconventional, or perhaps even "incorrect" whatever the hell that means. There are a few passages where he clearly disobeys the staccatos and dynamics, but I feel they are minor. Can someone explain the main differences between his interpretation and other more "traditional" interpretations? Even better: can someone recommend some recordings that are good but very different from Gould's?

You know, Gould had terrible back problems from sitting in that chair..

Also, dont hum.  Gould got the idea from hearing how the piano sounded when a vacuum cleaner was on under the piano.  I suggest you turn on the vacuum cleaner and make sure you hear what Gould heard before trying to do what he did.  If you do the latter before the former, you'll just look and sound like a fool.

Remember that you should not try to play "Gould's GV", but are playing Bach's Goldberg Variations.  Go to the source before leeching off Gould's interpretation.

[steveie986]

1) I disagree with Kassaa. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with copying well-known interpretations. The only way you can develop an original sound is through listening and imitating previous sounds. In any case, your performance of a piece will be at least subconsciously influenced by whatever recordings you've heard. Imitation isn't an end in itself, of course, but often it's a prerequisite to originality.

2) With regard to "leeching" Gould: this is the reason why I ask about other interpretations of Bach. I don't want to be narrow-minded, though I love Gould very much.

3) I don't really hum. That was a slight hyperbole. However, I do love the sound of the piano when someone is vacuuming. It sounds good because the small blemishes in sound and tone are drowned out. Sort of like playing with the una corda pedal.

[donjuan]

3) I don't really hum. That was a slight hyperbole. However, I do love the sound of the piano when someone is vacuuming. It sounds good because the small blemishes in sound and tone are drowned out. Sort of like playing with the una corda pedal.

yeah, who needs to be a good pianist right? We can just hum and drown it all out!    Playing with the una corda pedal all the time just dilutes the music -it turns it into that background drone going on in restaurants that no one pays attention to.  If you try to cover up your lousy musicianship or "blemishes," as you say, with an una corda pedal or humming, then you are in no place to imitate the great pianists.  They knew what they were doing, that's why they are so great.  Have you ever seen "American Idol"?  at the first auditions, we see so many overconfident, stupid little kids who think they can imitate a great artist based on what they hear with their shallow little ears.  Music is an educational process, I'm sorry to say.

Try to do what those american idol kids dont do. -try listening to Gould's interview on that 1981 Goldberg Variations bonus CD and just listen to him talk.  The man very specifically  knows what he wants out of music, and I know he doesn't hum to cover up mistakes or divert our attention; it is more related to the way he thinks about the production of sound and his dislike of how, on the surface, a piano tends to sound like a piano.  I believe he hums (in tune, usually) to enhance the dissonances and vibrato one would experience in say, voice.

Not that I'm a big fan of interpreting interpretations, but also check out "32 Short Films about Glenn Gould (1994)" https://movies.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=170600

[steveie986]

Certainly I don't use the una corda pedal to cover up mistakes. It's cheating, like using MSG in Chinese food.

I've listened to the radio interview and watched the film as well. Interesting stuff.

Donjuan, I hope you don't think I'm an amateur who doesn't understand music! I've played piano for six months. I just finished that piece that goes diddle-diddle-di-di-da-doh-dee (by von Beatoven), what's it called again?? I started GV because I like Glenn Gould and I've learned the aria and first two variation and I'm 99% sure I sound just like him. Hell, I can at least hum better than him. I'm starting the Hammerklavier, 4th movement, next week. I'm disappointed this board is full of beginners who can't play the Hammerklavier, which is a moderately difficult piece at best (only Sorabji is considered difficult, because he's God). I should upgrade to a piano board with real pros soon. Boo-yah.

[mikey6]

The advice I've been given is too listen to recordings but obviously form your own interpretation - why would you want to copy someone elses?  But especially don't copy Gould (one of my teachers said if he were to play for an entrance examination, he probably wouldn't pass!)
Perahia's Goldberg has aquired legendary status, Schiff's Bach is always rather good.  Landowska may have recorded it on harpsichord (not sure).
I like parts of each if Gould's recordings although his tone at the 1st var. in the 81 is disgusting!

[demented cow]

I disagree with the people saying it's wrong to copy other people.
I can think of precisely one circumstance where copying is wrong (and even that is only academic), namely if somebody could perfectly copy an older recording and does so in a commercial recording studio. That would be artistic theft and a redundant cd (unless the cd is done for a cheaper label).
But if an amateur really likes some recording and wants to play it that way him/herself, then what's the problem? It's no counterargument to say 'That wouldn't be original', since there are people out there (including moi) whose original musical ideas often suck.
And I'm sure an audience would be more moved and elevated if some good (but not great) professional pianist could exactly replicate some amazing performance from the past than if they gave them some original but less inspired interpretation.
[Goes home to practise Liszt-Horowitz Funerailles and Beethoven-Kempf Waldstein]

[Kassaa]

It's no counterargument to say 'That wouldn't be original', since there are people out there (including moi) whose original musical ideas often suck.

It is a counterargument, who says you original ideas suck, and why don't you develop it instead of imitating other pianists?

In the final exam for a conservatory the examinators want to see an own style, not some wannabe Glen Gould.

[steveie986]

The question of whether or not to imitate is a moot point. For some, it's through imitation that you develop your own original interpretation.

There's no need for further argument on a point that's so simple and trivial.

[moi_not_toi]

Record yourself. it ALWAYS sounds better. (only if you're the center of the universe like me)

[kriskicksass]

There was a time when I listened to Gould for ideas on Bach. I have the pleasure of saying that I never directly imitated Gould, but I did have a habit of playing at his nonstandard tempi. Now that I'm playing Bach that I've never heard Gould perform, I've found that my Bach is a little more tame in my tempi and I don't bother to extemporize as much as I used to.

I've been thinking about my Bach playing lately and I'm starting to think that I was better off when I was listening to Gould. Not that I liked to copy his interpretations and mannerisms (it'd be suicide to do so), but hearing such fresh, original performances spurred my imagination on to some rather original interpretations of my own.

[steveie986]

Yeah. Well said.

[m]

Can someone explain the main differences between his interpretation and other more "traditional" interpretations?

Yes, the major difference is that he was Gould and prefered to make his own mistakes.
At least they were original and sincere.

[contrapunctus]

Certainly I don't use the una corda pedal to cover up mistakes. It's cheating, like using MSG in Chinese food.

I've listened to the radio interview and watched the film as well. Interesting stuff.

Donjuan, I hope you don't think I'm an amateur who doesn't understand music! I've played piano for six months. I just finished that piece that goes diddle-diddle-di-di-da-doh-dee (by von Beatoven), what's it called again?? I started GV because I like Glenn Gould and I've learned the aria and first two variation and I'm 99% sure I sound just like him. Hell, I can at least hum better than him. I'm starting the Hammerklavier, 4th movement, next week. I'm disappointed this board is full of beginners who can't play the Hammerklavier, which is a moderately difficult piece at best (only Sorabji is considered difficult, because he's God). I should upgrade to a piano board with real pros soon. Boo-yah.

Please tell me you are joking.  That piece you could not remember the name of is Fur Elise. You have been playing the piano for six months and you want to play Hammerklavier 4?  That is possibly the hardest fugue ever written. First of all you can't even get your recordings of the Goldberg variations to sound like Gould's because you don't have his piano (Steinway CD318, I think), His piano doesn't even sound like a regular piano anyway.

I am sorry we are not professional enough for you, and would you please watch what you say, many people might be offended by you refering to Sorabji as "God". That is very offensive and ignorant. Please feel free to upgrade to a board with "real pros" any time.

[kelly_kelly]

Please tell me you are joking.  That piece you could not remember the name of is Fur Elise. You have been playing the piano for six months and you want to play Hammerklavier 4?  That is possibly the hardest fugue ever written. First of all you can't even get your recordings of the Goldberg variations to sound like Gould's because you don't have his piano (Steinway CD318, I think), His piano doesn't even sound like a regular piano anyway.

I am sorry we are not professional enough for you, and would you please watch what you say, many people might be offended by you refering to Sorabji as "God". That is very offensive and ignorant. Please feel free to upgrade to a board with "real pros" any time.

The wonders of sarcasm...

[lostinidlewonder]

Hammerklavier is moderately difficult? Playing for 6 months means you are not amature? Hey I think I'm missing something here....

Anyway, you shouldn't listen to recordings and then imitate the peformer. Thats like plagiarism  in my mind. You do yourself a diservice if you analyse HOW you interpret a piece by listening to others, you should make the musical decision yourself first then listen other peoples demonstrations and make adjustments to your playing if you like how they do something. To simply copy/paste ideas is stupid.

It would be too hard to describe the main differences in Gould's handling of Bach to other people. You have so many examples which are observed by the ear alone to put it into words is stupid, oh bar 2 of BWV whatever, its just wasting our time. So listen to the music and read the score, then you can make your own judgement easily.

[steveie986]

I regret wasting my own precious time by posting this thread. Little to no insight in most of the responses. Most of you seem to enjoy arguing uselessly polemical and dogmatic points on why it is a musical sin to emulate the sound of a recording that you particularly admire.

[thaicheow]

I regret wasting my own precious time by posting this thread. Little to no insight in most of the responses. Most of you seem to enjoy arguing uselessly polemical and dogmatic points on why it is a musical sin to emulate the sound of a recording that you particularly admire.

I think most who had responsed to your posting are generally right.

Steveie986, I should say you are still new in piano playing. It is a good effort for you to try Bach's GV. And found Gould's playing interesting means that you have a taste.

But, learning piano for just 6 months is not quite well prepare yourself for a monumental work like GV. If you want to explore more about Bach, you may start with  Anna Magdelenna's Notebook, 18 little preludes, or some easier pieces in WTC.

Sorry I have to say that. It is true that it is a waste of time for you to post this message if, at the first place, you can't take criticisms nor advice of others. I have been playing piano for more than 20 years and I understand that some comments are quite true. Bach is complicated and very sophisticated, and all his work, not even those "easier" pieces should be taken light hearted. Also, there is nothing wrong by imitating others. But if eventually you can have your own thought and own interpretation/way of playing, you can never be great or, at least, interesting. Frankly, who wants to listen to another playing similar to Gould's? I might as well just buy all his recordings. 

If you are interested in Bach, other than Glenn Gould, you may check out Rosalyn Tureck  (her GV also has the legendary status), Angela Hewitt (very good, and her recording always comes with lengthy, insight writing on the work by herself, double bonus). These are people who have dedicated almost ALL THEIR LIFE in playing Bach. Also you may can check out other Bach's work played by Alicia de Larrocha, Charles Rosen, Maria Yudina (another controversial recording of her playing GV), Murray Perahia.

As you listen more, open up your mind, you will know that Gould's Bach is not the only answer.

[steveie986]

Thanks thai for your considerate message. I have not been playing for just six months (actually eight years - not terribly long but I think I'm ready for GV). I was being sarcastic in my last post about attempting the Hammerklavier 4 (I thought the botched reference to "von Beatoven" should have made that clear). I understand entirely what you're saying, but the problem is that we've all been arguing about nothing. I agree that Gould shouldn't be my only standard, which is why I asked for advice about other interpretations to meditate on (thanks to those who replied). The reason I emulate Gould is to gain inspiration for a personal interpretation. That's all. If people don't think that I should emulate "just because," then I politely disagree. Copying is not the end in itself but the means to "owning" the piece for yourself.