pedal usage with Bach or Mozart

[mick8431]

Just wonder whether I should use pedal with Bach.. and when I should use it.
To me, it sounds better with pedal. But my piano teacher told me that she wasn't allowed to use pedal with bach before.

I am preparing prelude and fugue in C# major for college audition.
Personally, I think harpsicord is more resonant than piano without pedal... pedaling help bring up that antique and baroque sensation of harpsicord..

Unless I play in the hall effect on digial pain or on piano with high resonance, the piece doesn't sound very good.

[zheer]

    This is a very intresting question, with composers like Bach Mozart, Beethoven and even Chopin its good to start with-out the pedal. Basically its good to try and work on clarity and legato with your fingers only, once you can play legato perfectly with-out the pedal, you might like to use the pedal to creat atmospher, color and all the things that are possible when the pedal is in use.

    According to Chopin the best way to work on creating legato, is by practicing staccato. I cant go into detail at the moment but with some pieces it really helps to play staccato first, then legato with your fingers only, and finaly with the pedal you can add some soul to the music, ( This includes Bach ) Good luck.   

  Am going to start doing this, its good way to develop clarity , i guess.

[steinwayargentina]

Just wonder whether I should use pedal with Bach.. and when I should use it.
To me, it sounds better with pedal. But my piano teacher told me that she wasn't allowed to use pedal with bach before.

I am preparing prelude and fugue in C# major for college audition.
Personally, I think harpsicord is more resonant than piano without pedal... pedaling help bring up that antique and baroque sensation of harpsicord..

Unless I play in the hall effect on digial pain or on piano with high resonance, the piece doesn't sound very good.

I dont know why more people dont reply this kind of mesagges that are the most intresting ones. There is a world to say about the use of the pedal in Bach and other composers, from my point of view (and for many others) I consider that you have to use pedal to play bach but it has not to be listened, the pedal have to apears just when your finger cannot follow a voce and have to get usefull on avoiding holes in the sound and in the voices. If you are preparing the 5 five voices fugue in C# minor you will certainly need the pedal for voicing.

[bennom]

Controversial subject perhaps...?

I think pedal can be used extensively in Bach, specially in prelude-like pieces, where harmony is everything, and the ever-present polyphony is there merely to enrich the harmonic changes. In a fugue, pedal would be very confusing, but used in a creative way, I'm sure it could have some value.

The "I-want-to-be Glenn-Gould-but-i'm-not" style of eternal staccato in Bach makes me puke, it is hateful. His staccato sung. Nobody else's does.

However, in school, be extremely careful with pedal, or just don't use it. Teachers should not have to take a stand on this issue.

[lostinidlewonder]

I feel using the sustain pedal in Bach can distort the polyphony of his music, especially his fugues. The magic of his writing is that we have sense seperate voices moving about one another, creating sounds together but seperate. Once you pedal they blend together, it takes away the experience of Bach and forces listeners to hear one dimensional music. Pedalling however for emphasis to chordal sounds that the voices ring out together is a nice idea, this happens especially near the end of the piece and is of good taste in my opinion. Half pedaling elsewhere and extremely sparingly I would think.

[contrapunctus]

I don't use any pedal with Bach or Mozart most of the time. It is just your opinion on if you use it or not.

[stevie]

I don't use any pedal with Bach or Mozart most of the time. It is just your opinion on if you use it or not.

take me in your arms, feel my sweet caress.

[mikey6]

Mozart loved the pedal, it's apparently documented, so I wouldn't shy away from it.  However it's all a matter of where and how much.  Generally minimal - only to resonate a chord or note, or to assist legato where finger legato is not quite possible.
Obviously you're not gonna blur the sound as you would in Scriabin or Liszt or even Chopin as I don't think the forte piano could create that sound and the harpsichord obviously not.

[nicco]

Bach is fingerwork. Not footwork.

[steinwayargentina]

Bach is fingerwork. Not footwork.

Not an adecuatte game of words, because if you try to play most organ works in the organ you will see that is really footwork, I agree whith mikey6 about Mozart and I consider that it is also extensible to bach works, remember that Bach finally aprove the silverstein piano dont you see an intuitive pedal writing in Bach first Prelude of WTC I? I think that discussing on If-bach-have-to-be-played-whith-pedal-or-not is very basic, it is only reducing the matter to a formula: Play with pedal or Play without pedal and they are not the only answers for that questions theres all a wold to expplore and discuss in the middle of that, How did you play the first full chords of partita no.2  in c minor whitout pedal whitout sounds tenisioned? but in the other hand you will certainly dont use pedal in the exposition of the fugue, I finally think that the matter is to use very shortly cuotes of pedal or midle pedal in the pasages that de poliphony dont let you make the legato with your fingers or you have to make a jump or change the register suddenly, and in the harmonic developments when ussually several pianist put pedal and blend the sound I found an intermediate point using finger pedaling (sustaining some notes whith the fingers) to generate some harmony without blending the sound. If I can I will post in the future some mp3 for example that is posible to play with pedal whitout percibing it.

[20258]

Erm...Sorry everyone,I am a new Visitor in this "Piano Street"
1)I would like to know what is "polyphony"?
2)For a new piano learner,shold I use pedal for all the song without follow the song instruction?

[jim_24601]

The "I-want-to-be Glenn-Gould-but-i'm-not" style of eternal staccato in Bach makes me puke, it is hateful. His staccato sung. Nobody else's does.

While I'd tend to agree with you in that I wouldn't play Bach that way in front of anybody, it's a very good way to practise.

[ludwig]

Erm...Sorry everyone,I am a new Visitor in this "Piano Street"
1)I would like to know what is "polyphony"?
2)For a new piano learner,shold I use pedal for all the song without follow the song instruction?

hi 20258 =) I think I can answer your first question with ease. Polyphony is a textural description of a piece in the sense that we're talking about the layers of sound. It simply means that there are more than 2 "layers" within the music. It actually depends on how you are looking at things. For example, polyphony can be created with more than one melody going on at a time, such as in fugues, when the subject or the "main theme" is exposed and then in another voice part, it is repeated (perhaps in a new key or slightly different), then another. The fugue is different to a cannon or a round because the theme isn't finished before it is "exposed" or repeated again. Anyways, these "layers" which happens at different times creates fugue polyphony. Polyphony can also be thought of as a style of music, highly complex in textural structures or/and intricately woven.

I'm sure there are other definitions of polyphony and I will think of more if you are interested. But in the sense that we're talking about clarity, polyphony means stating the different entries of the melodies clearly and with definition. On the subject of pedal, I think it is not "forbidden" to use in Bach's music, but perhaps a little different to that of the use in Mozart. I wouldn't use them in the same way at all. I agree that it is totally up to your taste, however, we should not cover any clear statements of the melody up with it, nor over-crowed the harmonies, making them clash, nor join or tie notes with it when the composer did not intend for it to happen (of course this is subjective, but yeah, use common sense mostly )

I don't really get your 2nd question.. don't know if you're asking to abandon the pedal marks in music or if it is okay to put in pedal for the whole piece if it sounds good to you? or both?? or neither? :p

[nicco]

Not an adecuatte game of words, because if you try to play most organ works in the organ you will see that is really footwork

Sorry, i was a bit careless. I was thinking of his piano works. I try to use as little pedal as possible. Especially in his WTC collection. The fugues just isnt the same with some blurry pedal use. However in some of the preludes, where the mood is very sad, pedal could well be used for getting the right kind of harmonies to life

[steinwayargentina]

Sorry, i was a bit careless. I was thinking of his piano works. I try to use as little pedal as possible. Especially in his WTC collection. The fugues just isnt the same with some blurry pedal use. However in some of the preludes, where the mood is very sad, pedal could well be used for getting the right kind of harmonies to life

Ha ha ha, yes We agree now! 

[steinwayargentina]

Controversial subject perhaps...?


The "I-want-to-be Glenn-Gould-but-i'm-not" style of eternal staccato in Bach makes me puke, it is hateful. His staccato sung. Nobody else's does.

Sorry, I understand that the kind of touch that uses Gould to play Bach is Non-legato, stacatto is certainly another type of touch.

[bennom]

Sorry, I understand that the kind of touch that uses Gould to play Bach is Non-legato, stacatto is certainly another type of touch.

Well, you may call it what ever you like, sir, but I find the non-legato of glenn gould very singing indeed. But when pianists imitate his mannerisms (and he is so very full of mannerisms!) I find it extremely unattractive to my ears.

It is very difficult to sing with every note separeted from the other (ask a singer...) and why, why, why do young pianists persist in this unhealthy habit?

[musik_man]

Erm...Sorry everyone,I am a new Visitor in this "Piano Street"
1)I would like to know what is "polyphony"?
2)For a new piano learner,shold I use pedal for all the song without follow the song instruction?

1) There are essentially two styles of musical composition, Homophonic and Polyphonic.  Homophonic music consists of a melody and chords used to support them.  Polyphonic music has no 'chords.'  What you have instead is multiple melodies intertwined.  The easiest way to understand this is to look at a fugue, which is the most common polyphonic form.  If you have any sheet music from Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, look at one of the fugues(if you don't, you can get some at www.sheetmusicarchive.net)  In the opening measure, there will only one 'voice' or melody.  After this melody(called the 'subject' of the fugue) is stated, a second voice will enter.  The second voice will play the same melody transposed.  Meanwhile the first voice will continue to play a different melody that supports the first melody.  This pattern will continue until all the voices have entered.  There can be any number of voices as long as there are more than two(Thomas Tallis's Spem in Alium for 5 choirs has 40 different melodies playing simultaneously, though it's not technically a fugue )  I hope that was somewhat clear.  It's hard to explain over the internet.

2)Use of the pedal is more of an art than a science.  Listen to yourself and see how much pedal sounds the best.  I will warn you though, that it's very tempting to pedal over any problems you have.  The result will be a blurry mess.  You should practice all your pieces from time to time with no pedal, so that you only use it when it is artistically necessary.

[bartolomeo_]

Many aspiring pianists use too much pedal in Bach.  But then, many aspiring pianists use too much pedal in everything.

I think it depends on the piece, the tempo, the instrument, the room, the performer, and the audience.

[bennom]

Many aspiring pianists use too much pedal in Bach. But then, many aspiring pianists use too much pedal in everything.

I think it depends on the piece, the tempo, the instrument, the room, the performer, and the audience.

I think many student pianists use too little pedal in Bach. They think it sounds "real Bach" if it's dry. What a bore.

[nervous_wreck]

yes, use pedal. no, don't let it be heard.
to be more specific, the harpsichord had many many mechanisms (of which i'm not familiar) but it had certain things that would make notes louder... or open the strings so all of them would resonate, or other things in which i have no idea. when using the pedal in bach (at least for me) i avoid using it as you would any other composer, to connect notes as such... i would strongly disaggree with anyone who thinks you should connect notes with a pedal. but i use the pedal more as an instrument of its own, to let the piano resonate, and then give a little more volume, and maybe when it comes to improvised sections, to slur some of the notes even a little. no one can really tell you yes or no though, there are some things that are just wrong, (for instance, putting the pedal down at the beginning of the piece, and taking it up at the end) but going thorugh your moderation, it's your opinion that counts, not ours, you can't exactly do what other people tell you to do, becuase it's not your idea.

[superstition2]

Playing pieces composed for harpsichords on pianos will never be "authentic". It's up to each player to determine how to adapt them. If a pianist, for artistic reasons, chooses to use the pedal a lot, even to blur things and do other unorthodox things with the music, it's their right. Everything in technique comes down to the end result. Is it musically valid? Prescriptive rules like "don't use any pedal" are meant to be broken, in my opinion. If you're really interested in learning the difference between the "authentic" performance and adaptation, find a period harpsichord with the appropriate parts (some models have special effects) and master the piece on it. You can use the knowledge you've gathered for your piano adaptation.

One analyst said the Goldberg Variations require a late-model two-manual harpsichord with specific special effects parts in order to be played properly. To that analyst, Gould's piano performance, indeed any piano performance, is not authentic at all. Horowitz asserted that Scarlatti's sonatas benefit from adaptation. He said the sonatas we're made for the piano, despite having been composed specifically for harpsichord. Horowitz's Mozart generates strong feelings, positive and negative, depending on the critics. I really like his performances of the sonatas. He said Mozart should be played like Chopin and Chopin like Mozart.

[letters]

i try to use very little pedal with bach, but i think sometimes there are places where you really cant avoid it, because for example a chord isn't sustained, or sounds weak. However i would definitely only put pedal in when you can confidently play the piece without it, this way you get clarity and eveness in your fingers. With mozart however, pedal is ok, but remember it is not chopin or even beethoven where pedal is used liberally - precision is still the key, but pedal can be used to create moods and atmospheres and to emphasise harmonies.

[jehangircama]

i believe that for an examination or an audition one should not use the pedal at all in bach and very minimally in mozart. i personally belive that mozart requires a bit of pedal while bach does not. fingerwork sounds better than pedalling in bach, imo.