chopin related angst...

[bezlo]

hi board,

I've had no piano lessons and but have been playing for 3 years(ish) now, and I am a novelty ragtime pianist at heart, yet recently i've been trying my hand at chopin.

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong in my learning (A Zez Confrey piece I can learn in like 1 month easy) but its taken me since christmas trying to learn Fantasie Impromptu and I still can only just about play the first section, and its pretty flawed. I think that maybe my timing is OK to unmusical ears but I should imagine a pro pianist would cringe,

So I'm posting a video of me attempting this crafty piece, any help in how I could improve my technique/hand positions would be much appreciated.

Video: https://www.benwheele.com/video.htm - it is the third one down

(P.S. i'm not a professional, and probably won't ever be, well not at classical music at least, so please don't just say "give up" because its only a hobby to me - I still take it quite seriously in spite of my amateur-ness)

ben

[letters]

did i see u had a metronome there?? if so use it! i rekon find a tempo where you can play a section comfortably with everything right, it doesnt matter if you slow it right down. Then move the metronome up a notch until you can play everything right at that speed. just keep doing this (and it doesnt have to be over 2 hours or anything, just come back to it each day at the new tempo and if its ok that day move it up anotch again.) i thought you were playing it just a bit too fast but it was very good!

[steve jones]

Same here, I thought it was great, especially considering that you've not been playing very long. FI is a above Gr8 level, and not many people achieve that level in 3 years. It took my sister more like 10, but then again she started at a very early age. If I can play FI when Iv been playing for 3 years, I'll be a very happy man!

But with respect to your problem, I can relate to this totally. Iv been playing just over a year, and are learning the Bach Inventions and easier Chopin Preludes (self taught also). I find that I can memorize them quite quickly and get them under my fingers without too much trouble. However, its been taking several months to get them up to a playable standard.

I'll tell what I think it is...

Playing piano seems to be all about solving problems. Initially the problems are obvious - learning the notes, developing the proper technique, considering the interpretation etc. However, when it comes to ironing out the little flaws, I think it must take much more experience as the problems are far more difficult to identify. I mean, saw you have a certain passage that you just cant seem to get right - as a beginner its just a matter of trial and error in finding out where the faults lie, right?

This is where I believe a teacher comes into it. They can direct you in identifying and correcting problem areas without need for endless experimentation.

Then again, maybe this is a double edged sword. It could be argued that taking this time in the early stages to develop your problem solving ability might serve well in the future. It kind of like learning to drive - when you have an instructor sat next to you the whole time, you dont really think for yourself. Its only when you get out on the open road for the first time (alone) do you REALLY start learning!

So I guess what Im saying is, just give it the time and work it takes to finish the job. It might seem to be taking ages, but dont forget, the pros can take years to get a piece upto performance standard.

[rimv2]

hi board,

I've had no piano lessons and but have been playing for 3 years(ish) now, and I am a novelty ragtime pianist at heart, yet recently i've been trying my hand at chopin.

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong in my learning (A Zez Confrey piece I can learn in like 1 month easy) but its taken me since christmas trying to learn Fantasie Impromptu and I still can only just about play the first section, and its pretty flawed. I think that maybe my timing is OK to unmusical ears but I should imagine a pro pianist would cringe,

So I'm posting a video of me attempting this crafty piece, any help in how I could improve my technique/hand positions would be much appreciated.

Video: https://www.benwheele.com/video.htm - it is the third one down

(P.S. i'm not a professional, and probably won't ever be, well not at classical music at least, so please don't just say "give up" because its only a hobby to me - I still take it quite seriously in spite of my amateur-ness)

ben

Im not a bad man.

You are a bad man.

Im not a bad man.

What was ah gonna say? 

[bezlo]

thanks for all the advice,
yeah upon reflection I think that I can 'learn' Novelty rags technically at a similar speed (memorizing and playing) but I can also "finish them off" a lot faster since I've been playing ragtime the longest and know how to pedal well and all that - and as well, ragtime is a lot easier to master so you can comfortably play around with the details,

wheras, classical music is so much more popular and there is so much more written/believed about how to interpret it correctly, just listening to recordings alone maybe doesn't cut it...

yeah thats a metronome you can see, in the early stages of leaning the FI it was invaluable to me for getting the polyrhythm sorted, yet I've become really lazy with it now... actually the more I think about it...I think the metronome might be the 'answer' to all of this...

I'm not a bad man....YOU'RE a bad man....

Im not a bad man!!
 
You are a bad man....

(lol you should have seen my art tutors face when 'quiet' little me produced that video)

[pianistimo]

ahahhhaaa  this is the funniest video i've ever seen of fantasie impromptu.  i'm still laughing.  how you sequed into ragtime, i'll never know.  this is where victor borge took off.

ps  i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing with you.  chopin is just plain difficult for most students and there's only a few that play him well.  so just keep on doing what you are doing.  it gets easier day by day.  and, if you happen to find a teacher - that will help!  i have learned in fast passages to keep my fingers very close to the keys and angle them if i  have a white note down here and a black notes 2 octaves higher - my hand angles / to the  black note so that i hit it farther in from the tip.  i used to slip off or mis-hit black notes.  you have to come to love that slippery feeling of black notes (and learn as rock climbers do, how to avoid slipping).

another thing is that to play so many notes gives the impression of loudness - so you don't have to play as forte as you are.  relax and play lighter and softer.  this will dramatically help your reflexes.  you can crescendo and decrescendo within parameters that let you feel like an ocean wave and not a tsunami.

[emmdoubleew]

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong in my learning (A Zez Confrey piece I can learn in like 1 month easy) but its taken me since christmas trying to learn Fantasie Impromptu and I still can only just about play the first section, and its pretty flawed.

read this:

I'm not sure what I am doing wrong in my training (A 20 pound weight I can lift easly) but I've been trying since christmas to lift a 250 pound weight and I can barely get if off the ground, and even then I feel so much strain in my back.

See where I'm getting at  .

It's too hard for you! And beleive me: you can get injured very seriously if you keep pushing yourself! There is so much aboslutely fantastic Chopin that you could play before you move on. I suggest you start with the nocturnes, and although they are still easier than FI, they are still hard enough to give you a challenge, and absolutely beautiful pieces. Then you can move on to the etudes, which are shorter and less demanding, although very very hard. And finally you can start working on the FI with less problems and frustrations.

But seriously, I recommend a teacher; someone who can give you the training needed to play such difficult pieces.

Best of luck. 

[kelly_kelly]

I suggest you start with the nocturnes, and although they are still easier than FI, they are still hard enough to give you a challenge, and absolutely beautiful pieces. Then you can move on to the etudes, which are shorter and less demanding, although very very hard. And finally you can start working on the FI with less problems and frustrations.

Aren't most of the etudes far more difficult than FI?

[bezlo]

the etudes look just as hard to me, but maybe thats just because I haven't seriously thought about learning them yet, usually pieces which appear impossible to play for the first week I have a 'breakthrough' and can at least play the notes.

I was under the impression too that fantasie impromptu was more of a 'sounder' in that it sounds really really hard but its actually not as hard as it sounds. But yeah I think nevertheless its still above my level... although, how do injuries happen on piano? too much cycling in one passage maybe? wouldn't you just think " ouch that hurts " and stop?

[elisianna]

That's pretty good for three years man! =O (I haven't been playing that long though, so I guess I don't have a very good idea >.>;

Those other videos are messed up ... o.o;

[emmdoubleew]

the etudes look just as hard to me, but maybe thats just because I haven't seriously thought about learning them yet, usually pieces which appear impossible to play for the first week I have a 'breakthrough' and can at least play the notes.

Well, the reason I suggested the etudes is because they're etudes .

I was under the impression too that fantasie impromptu was more of a 'sounder' in that it sounds really really hard but its actually not as hard as it sounds. But yeah I think nevertheless its still above my level... although, how do injuries happen on piano? too much cycling in one passage maybe? wouldn't you just think " ouch that hurts " and stop?

If only

The musicians studied ranged from secondary (high) school through professional. One of his studies reports the alarming news that out of 98 high school instrumentalists studied, 63% of females and 49% of males suffered from injury.

Source: https://www.balancedpianist.com/pianoinjury.htm

Still, I hold to my recommendation of the nocturnes. They're so beautiful, and most of them are challenging.

[gruffalo]

the whole point of the Chopin etudes is that they are pieces that are concentrated on different difficult technical problems with the hands. you get a teacher to guide you through 3 or 4 or 10 or 24 (depending on what you're doing,where you're going, what level you're at etc) and then you go try something like FI. Yes the Etudes are difficult, but they are difficult for a purpose. to unlock your technique.

[emmdoubleew]

the whole point of the Chopin etudes is that they are pieces that are concentrated on different difficult technical problems with the hands. you get a teacher to guide you through 3 or 4 or 10 or 24 (depending on what you're doing,where you're going, what level you're at etc) and then you go try something like FI. Yes the Etudes are difficult, but they are difficult for a purpose. to unlock your technique.

Basically my point except clearer. Thanks gruff.

[bezlo]

so like hanon/czerny but not.....really......boring and of actual musical value...  hehe, actually I quite like hanon though , I think the exercises have meditative qualities, maybe Hanon was secretly a buddhist?

maybe not,

[emmdoubleew]

so like hanon/czerny but not.....really......boring and of actual musical value...  hehe, actually I quite like hanon though , I think the exercises have meditative qualities, maybe Hanon was secretly a buddhist?

maybe not,

I know what you mean!    I actually like the Schmidt better. Similar to hanon but more substance.

And the Czernys are cute , why does everybody dislike them.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Pischna is really great; it just works, even Michelangeli suggested it. To me it was a great help as a complement to the chopin etudes to build technique. But it would of course be way to restrictive too call the chopin etudes technical studies. They are the most amazing combination, or rather, fusion between musical and technical ideas and challenges.

[gruffalo]

Basically my point except clearer. Thanks gruff.

no problem.

[ted]

Bezlo:

I find your playing very interesting. I have sent you a private message about it.
Ted.