Help on Piano Purchase

[JDW]

I am looking for a Kawai or Yamaha 6'8" to 7'4" range.  It seems that the 3 Yamaha pianos I have played (new)
lack the deep, rich bass that I have heard in other large pianos.  Until recently, I was convinced that Kawai was better in this area, but now I'm not sure.  I think that ambient conditions play a larger role in sound quality then I thought.  Any comments?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Hmoll]

I am looking for a Kawai or Yamaha 6'8" to 7'4" range.  It seems that the 3 Yamaha pianos I have played (new)
lack the deep, rich bass that I have heard in other large pianos.  Until recently, I was convinced that Kawai was better in this area, but now I'm not sure.  I think that ambient conditions play a larger role in sound quality then I thought.  Any comments?

Thanks,
Jeff

Then what you should do is not limit yourself to only two brands. There are a lot of pianos out there, and you should play a variety of them before you make your decision. It would be tragic to rush into buying a piano or limit yourself to certain makes, and a week after you hand over a 5 digit check for your Kawai or Yamaha, play a Petrof, Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, or other piano that you find you like better.

Play a lot of instruments and don't buy anything until you find something you absolutely love.

[Axtremus]

Agree with Hmoll -- best thing is to play as many different pianos as you can before deciding. In the USA, it is not uncommon for a serious grand piano buyer to search for 6 months (or longer) to find the right piano, and many travel to several different states to play different pianos before deciding on one. (Also, in the USA, we have many brands to choose from, including those mentioned by Hmoll... not sure if Estonia and Mason and Hamlin export elsewhere though, especially outside North America and Europe.)

And, yes, you are right -- the room acoustic can influence the resulting tone quite a bit. I don't know how to quantify it, but it is good to keep in mind that you have to adjust for room size (e.g., if you think the piano sounds loud in big showroom floor, it will sound even louder in a smaller living room; hardwood, marble, or tile floor will sound brighter than thickly carpeted floor).

The rest is just my personal opinion on pianos with "rich, deep bass" since that's also one of the things I look for when shopping for my own piano:

If you're looking for a bass that can rival a 9' concert grand -- I haven't find one. Fazioli F-228 (7'6") gets the closest in my experience. But nothing shorter than 7'4" can approach the "rich, deep bass" of a true 9' concert grand -- it's just a fundamental physical limit. (If you can accomodate a 9' piano, some used 9' grands can be found at fairly reasonable prices -- old Baldwin SD-10 and old Yamahna CF, for examples. And Estonia's 9' grand might be the cheapest of the lot if you want a new 9' piano -- may be very hard to find since I have yet to see one myself.)

New pianos within the 6'6" to 7'6" range that I found to have "rich, deep bass" are:

Steinway B (6'10") -- not consistent, and not every one has it, you just need to play many model B's until you find one with "deep, rich bass" that satisfies you (very pricey). Can also venture into used/restored Model C and Model A if you want to consider used/rebuilt pianos (or buy from Europe !!).

Mason and Hamlin BB (7') -- consistently "powerful," but not necessarily as deep or as rich as a really good Steinway B (less pricey than Steinway, but pricier than Kawai RX and Yamaha C-series of the same size)

Baldwin SF-10 (7') -- ... I have played SF-10 with "deep, rich bass" and I am rather certain the potential is there ... [Edit: Other SF-10-related statements I previously made here are erroneous -- please see G.Fiore's post below for more up-to-date info ].

If you haven't already, also sample the Yamaha S-6 and the Shigeru Kawai SK-5, SK-6, and SK-7 pianos. Their bass registers are much refined over the C-series and the RX-series. (These pianos are also priced much higher than the C- and RX-series, unfortunately.)

A 7'6" Bosendorfer can also be very "deep" in the bass. But I wouldn't call it "rich." Its "depth" comes in a cleaner fasion, less overtone, and definitely not "loud." (It can "sing," but not "roar.") Same thing with a 7'6" Bechstein -- deep and clean, but can go louder than a Bosendorfer and a bit "richer" in overtone. But I haven't play that many Bosendorfers and Bechsteins to say if this is consistent for these brands. (These brands are priced way up in the stretosphere.)

And, depending on how you define "rich," a Petrof II or even a Petrof III might also be worth considering. A 7' or 7'6" Schimmel might do as well once you go down this path. But my personal opinion is that they do not sound as "deep." (These brands are cheaper, but still more expensive than same sized Yamaha C and Kawai RX.)

Good luck!

[G.Fiore]

:)Axtremus,Baldwin is not bankrupt,they were two years ago,but are now owned by Gibson.An SF-10 can be ordered,by no means will it be close to the price of a RX-6 or 7,it will be closer to the price of a Mason BB.Yes the SF is very capable of having a great bass,and singing treble,but like a Steinway it will require a day or two of prep by a highly skilled Tech.

[JDW]

A wealth of information!  I plan to travel to try out different pianos, if that's what it takes.  My budget will allow for a decent used grand, and I don't mind searching for a few months.  Thanks for all the valuable insight.

Jeff

[Axtremus]

Thanks to G.Fiore for clarifying the Baldwin brand's situation. I have since done some research on Baldwin and came up with the following (please correct any mistake you see):

Old/original manufacturer of Baldwin pianos, the "Baldwin Piano & Organ Company," filed for Chapter 11 protection in mid-2001. The Gibson Guitar Corporation, through its subsidiary, eventually purchased some of the Baldwin assets (some brand names and some factories) in late-2001. Chances are the factories were shut down for only less than a year. So I assume the Baldwin-branded pianos made after mid-2001 were made under Gibson's management.

If indeed the new Baldwin-branded SF-10's are priced at the same range as the new Mason and Hamlin BB, then they are much more expensive than the old Baldwin pianos made before mid-2001. (The old SF-10's, used ones, if you can find them, should probably be priced closer to the new C-6/RX-6 than the new Mason and Hamlin BB.)

Just for curiosity, if any of you out there have played any Gibson-era SF-10 or SD-10, or even Model L, can you please comment on these new Baldwin pianos' performance? Comparisons to the old Baldwin pianos will be appreciated as well. If possible, I would also like to know if the new Baldwin-branded pianos are being manufactured in the US or elsewhere. Thanks.

(G.Fiore -- you said SF-10 can be "ordered." Do you mean Gibson only produce those "on demand" after some one place an order these days instead of building a bunch of SF-10's and send them to dealers? Thanks.)

[Hmoll]

An SF-10 can be ordered,by no means will it be close to the price of a RX-6 or 7,it will be closer to the price of a Mason BB.Yes the SF is very capable of having a great bass,and singing treble,but like a Steinway it will require a day or two of prep by a highly skilled Tech.

I'm not sure if you mean they are only shipped when ordered. Could you please clarify?

At any rate, that reminds me of another important point in purchasing a piano. The piano you pay for shoudl be the exact same piano that you played in the dealer, and fell in love with. Always note the serial numbers of the pianos that you are considering buying. If you decide to purchase that piano later, make sure what is delivered has the same serial number.

[G.Fiore]

:)Axtremus,Since the purchase of Baldwin by Gibson,and the reorginization of the dealer networks,the prices of new Baldwin grands have risen.The Artist Grands,M,R,L,SF,and SD are all made in Arkansas.Most dealers are not stocking the larger grands,that's why you must order.How do the new Gibson Baldwins compare to the old? The ones I have serviced needed less prep,but for a short time period after the bankruptcy the grands had some manufacturing problems.I have a 2000 model SF-10,which I did some tricking out on.Now it is awesome,a lot of my friends,who are also performers can't get enough of it.Our friend Rich G at Cunningham's will tell you I'm a perfectionist,and my SF is a reflection of that.How's your BB?