thumb over revisited

[demented cow]

The thumb-over method has been discussed often here, but I couldn't find answers to the following question:

Is there anybody here who has actually had any success in switching to thumb-over after using only thumb-under for many years?

I am contemplating switching, but if I do, the transition won't be easy, and I've been putting the issue off for ages.
The background: I (an amateur) have always used TU, but it's never worked well. Outward scales are one of my biggest sources of speed walls. (To give an indication: the downward lh scale before the coda in Chopin 10/4 is one of the 4 main speed barriers in the piece for me, whereas I guess others wouldn't include it among the harder passages.)

PS: For people who have never heard of it, thumb-over is moving the thumb into place by moving the hand instead of moving the thumb under the other fingers; here are some links on the subject:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7902.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,1918.msg15015.html#msg15015

[lostinidlewonder]

Thumb over is much more superior to under when excecuting fast arpeggio or scales, however in a lot of music we are forced to play thumb under, you will experience this a lot of the times with Bach when the intricate fingering requires thumb under for sound clarity and ease of play. So there is no one way to do it, you must choose thumb under or over depending on what the score demands of you. If you are in a situation where you can do both under or over and it doesn't effect the sound, then choose thumb over.

The reasoning is that thumb under contracts the hand, changes its shape, moves it away from its relaxed posture, where thumb over does not change the shape of the hand. The more we change the shape of our hands while we play the more effort and tension can build up in our playing.

[pianobabe_56]

The concept of thumb-over really intrigues me. I've read about it in Chang's book and experimented with it, but I'm not sure that I really understand exactly how it works. Can someone give me a really good definition?

[carlsayres]

I use a combination of both techniques. TO for scales/arpegios or anything fast. TU for slower expressive playing. But I never called it thumb over... for me it was just the way to play scales.

The descriptions that were previously mentioned are far too complex. TO is simply using rotation instead of colapsing the hand.

TU is what many beginning pianists are taught... and is why they find scales so daunting. TU says to move the thumb under the hand to begin playing the next block of notes. While there are certainly people who can do this very well, for beginners this usually results in a thud at the beginning of each block. It's also very tiring on the hand because you keep moving the thumb to colapse and then reposition the hand.

Here's the simplest way I can explain TO...

Start with your right hand on the keybaord, as if you were going to play a C major scale. Rotate your wrist counter-clockwise until your second and third fingers come off the keys. Now play the C with your thumb and rotate your hand clockwise to play the D and E. It should be very easy to play CDEDCDEDC... forever just by rotating (rocking) back and forth. You don't need to use any of the muscles in the fingers - just the motion from rotation. Now rotate your hand clockwise further than before, until your thumb winds up hovering high over the E. Keep going! Suddenly you'll find that your thumb is right over the F. Exactly the key you want to play next! Now rotate completely back in the other direction (let go of the E) allowing your thumb to come down on the F. Your hand is now in perfect position to play FGAB! The process then just repeats.

When you see someone do this well, it looks like their hand is rolling up the keyboard. The scale plays extremely evenly because every note is played with the exact same motion. 

There are subtleties that I'm glancing over. But once you learn to do it, you can play scales and arpegios blazing fast with little effort. If you have a teacher that understands the technique, it takes about a year to learn.

[ted]

At my age there is probably little sense in worrying too much about these things. I can usually play most things I want to play in many ways.  The two questions for me are what does it sound like and how hard is it. It's tempting sometimes to play everything in the physically easiest way. A couple of tape recordings are usually sufficient to discourage my impulse in this direction.

I think I use a curious mixture of both TO and TU, even varied from hand to hand because of the very different effect of rapid passages in low and high registers. There's another one I like the sound of which amounts to a sort of flying finger staccato using jumps in hand position. This is neither TO nor TU but I like using it in certain improvisation because of the rhythmic control and clear musical effect. To be honest, it's probably a defect acquired through too much practice clavier.

However, it would seem that the TO/TU distinction largely concerns straight up and down scales and figures having the object of smoothness. As most of my figures are non-standard and I delight in the surprise of varied accents the question is probably academic to my musical purposes.

[timothy42b]

At my age there is probably little sense in worrying too much about these things. I can usually play most things I want to play in many ways. 

And at the other end of the spectrum, as a beginner I find I am almost never limited by dexterity.  The beginner problems revolve around coordination, evenness, musicality, keyboard geometry, etc. 

Still, if I didn't know the TO/TU distinction I couldn't be a snob about it!  <grin> 

[jlh]

I agree with carlsayres.  I don't think it is nearly as simple as to say that one should NEVER use thumb under and ALWAYS use thumb over.  There are always variables to consider, as is the case with every technical problem. 

The object of scales and arpeggio practice, in part, is to practice correct legato technique (granted this is only a SMALL part of the objective), as well as develop fluidity of motion (among other things).  At slower speeds, it is impossible to maintain a legato touch by using TO. 

On the other side of the coin, when you speed things up, there comes a point at which using TU will slow you down, and it becomes necessary to modify your technique to include TO as an approach. 

This is how I was taught, and I believe it to be a sound approach to this problem. 

Josh

[deanslist]

Wow! I get it!  Bernhard's descriptions in the links of the rolling motion clicked. OK, I have a long way to go, but my C major scale HS was a zillion times faster and more even than it had been. I will need 4 octave fast scales for a college audition in a few years.

BTW, I am new here. Where would I post an introduction? I didn't notice any particularly obvious place to do that. Thanks!

[demented cow]

To answer a point raised above, I don't think anybody is claiming that one should use TO exclusively. I think it's consensus that TU is needed for slow legato scales/arps. To get legato with TO, you'd have to lift your elbow very high. This would require far more effort than a thumb turn, and you'd look like a duck flapping its wings.

What I am really interested in is more people's experiences in switching to TO. More posts like this:

Bernhard's descriptions in the links of the rolling motion clicked. .... my C major scale HS was a zillion times faster and more even than it had been.

Deanslist: did it take long to acquire this? I've been experimenting with TO and so far I can't get it to work, despite Bernhard's advice; maybe 25 years of exclusive TU will be impossible for me to reverse.

[deanslist]

It didn't take long to acquire what I have, but I've still a very long way to go. So far, I've only got the most rudimentary grasp but it is a great start. The rolling image combined with the descriptions for the four individual movements made sense. Going up the keyboard (oddly true with both hand) is easier than descending. I would've thought LH descending would have been straightforward like RH ascending. When I go as fast as I can (for now) it is still slightly uneven at the changes. 1231 is pretty good and feels pretty natural. 12341 is much less so. I don't know if this is correct or not, but I found that it is my thumb nail which is contacting the key and playing it. Of course as the hand continues to move it rotates over onto the side like it would be when playing TU.

I too, would really like to see someone video this at speed and see in slow motion. I'd also like to see someone exaggerate the motions to help with the learning process.

Every day at the piano is a new adventure.

[ted]

Just out of curiosity, do you people apply roughly the same TO/TU principles to double note figures, for example runs of thirds ?

[abell88]

BTW, I am new here. Where would I post an introduction? I didn't notice any particularly obvious place to do that. Thanks!

In case you haven't already found it, it's in the Anything But Piano forum.

I too, would really like to see someone video this at speed and see in slow motion. I'd also like to see someone exaggerate the motions to help with the learning process.

There was a video posted -- I think in Student's Corner -- several months ago by CC (Chang himself). You might find it useful.

[jlh]

To answer a point raised above, I don't think anybody is claiming that one should use TO exclusively. I think it's consensus that TU is needed for slow legato scales/arps.

Good to hear.  I've just been reading so many posts about "switching" to TO that I wanted to make sure people understand that you don't simply switch exclusively to any one technique.  Circumstances always dictate the correct technique. 

In regards to the question about a video... yes, CC did make a video of this a few months ago.  You can read what he said about it and download the video here:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8449.msg87527.html#msg87527

[pianoperfmajor]

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