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help analysing a sonata by mozart! (Read 11404 times)

Offline ashildmb

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help analysing a sonata by mozart!
« on: March 27, 2006, 06:17:03 PM »
I am doing a schoolproject about mozart. And I was wondering if anyone would help me analyse mozartīs sonata k.310 and k.311?

Offline Mayla

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 06:43:20 PM »
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Offline ashildmb

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 08:19:32 PM »
no, I am doing it alone! But I am really sorry, I did not mean k.310 and k,311. I ment B flat major sonata K.333 and C major K.545.
I have started analysing the different movements, modulations, history behind it and so on. But the thing i am most curious about is what is "typical" Mozart in these piano sonatas? This is my first real analyse so I am not sure of what to look after, if you understand what I mean!


Offline steve jones

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 11:12:45 PM »

It gets tricky when you have to analyse the individual passages bar by bar, note by note. Maybe it would be good to analyse some of Bach' Inventions first, so you can get an idea of who to proceed?


Offline nicco

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 11:22:49 PM »
Well, look at maylas reply and compare it to your sonatas. The form will be like that.
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Offline iumonito

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #5 on: March 28, 2006, 03:40:41 AM »
no, I am doing it alone! But I am really sorry, I did not mean k.310 and k,311. I ment B flat major sonata K.333 and C major K.545.
I have started analysing the different movements, modulations, history behind it and so on. But the thing i am most curious about is what is "typical" Mozart in these piano sonatas? This is my first real analyse so I am not sure of what to look after, if you understand what I mean!



Just in case you have outdated sources, K. 333 was composed in the mid 1780s in Salzburg or Wien, not Paris in 1778 as for a long time it was commonly believed.

Also note that 333 is a concerto without orchestra.  I will not spoil it for you, but let us know if you want elaboration on that.
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Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #6 on: March 28, 2006, 08:41:40 AM »
maybe you could compare the sonata genre with the concerto genre of the time.  the first movement sonata form with concerto-sonata form.  the formal movements of the latter are

tutti (ritornello1) solo1 (expo) tutti 2 (rit2) solo2(dev) tutti3 and solo3(rit3/recap) tutti4(resolution)

tutti1: 1st theme group(ABC) transition 2nd theme group(DE) closing theme group (FG)

solo1: solo entry 1st theme (AB) transition figure 2nd theme (XDE) closing section(virt).
(2nd theme group XDE is in dominant whereas tutti/solos both stay in the tonic)

tutti2: ritornello 2 (often closing theme) is in dominant

solo2: development bravura section/ xxx (meaning other keys) and return to dominant

tutti3: usually begun by orchest and then the soloist joins
recapitulation of everything in tonic (1st theme ABC/trans/2nd themeDE/closing sectFG?

tutti4:final ritornello short, interrupted by solo cadenza (after I 6/4 chord - look for fermata) the soloist doesn't play after this cadenza.  all in tonic key.




the second movements are slow and cast in a variety of forms (sonata-allegro with little or no development, ternary form; theme and variations; and romanza in rondo form).

the fast finale usually employ a strong rondo element (mixed with features of sonata-allegro form).  many of it's features resemble concerto-sonata form as it applies to rondo form.  (can give more on this if you want)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 08:51:36 AM »
with the sonata form you have the expo, dev, and recap - but also should include within each more detail.

expo:  primary theme group (P) a transition (T) that produces great energy and modulates to a secondary key, a secondary theme group (S) in the new key, and a closing section (K) that may be thematic, but normally functions as an extended cadential passage. 

dev:  techniques can appear anywhere in the form, but most commonly associated with the middle section. the development concludes with a retransition section(RT) that will lead back to the tonic for the beginning of the recapitulation. 

unlike the exposition, the recapitulation has both the primary and secondary themes (P and S) in the tonic key.

**the main difference between sonata form and concerto-sonata form is the double exposition in the latter.  this allows for both the orchestra and the soloist to participate in the form.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 03:23:07 PM »
you may like to read this analysis:

http://depauwform.blogspot.com/2005/05/mozart-piano-sonata-in-b-flat-k333-iii.html

bear in mind, these are student analysis (and conversation) and not exact on the measures or ideas even sometimes. 

i find the similarity to concerto form quite compelling.  keep breaking it down.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 04:19:10 PM »
this is how i see it (though i may need help - so anyone please add what you think):

as i see it, we have the primary theme (P) starting out.  then in measure 10 a transition (T) to the secondary theme (S) in measure 23. 

what you look for is 'points of articulation' such as rests.  you have a quarter rest at measure 22.  this can be a dividing line between keys (and assumed development section).  this one is tricky because you have a sort of developmental feel and yet you could still have the orchestra playing anyway (if mozart is sort of converging the two concerto and sonata forms).

so - this area in measure 23 could be the development or simply a secondary theme (which you could call (S) or (B).  then you have a third theme (C) at measure 39.  i can easily hear this as a violin solo because of the bowing slurs and staccatos and held half notes.  notice in measure 38 the 3 beats of rest (alert alert).  those 'points of articulation' are really easy to find the more you look for them.

i'm kind of hoping my theory teacher goes on line here (doubtful since he's often busy) but perhaps he would add a lot more.  as i see it we have a full exposition which DOES merge to dominant key - but my point would be that you can see the secondary theme at measure 23 also as a secondary theme in the (tutti 3) recapitulation (m. 119) in the tonic.  that would be consistent with concerto form to have this secondary theme going like this.  and the start of the recap or tutti 3 at measure 103 at the end(with orch first and then piano).  i see a 'point of articulation' (rest) at measure 118 at the end - which to me could signify the piano solo of second theme which becomes very virtuosic and contains interply with the tutti every eight measures (piano coming in again at measure 134).  mozart certainly would have the piano playing the octaves - and elaborating on the violins half notes in the exposition.

so as i see it, measure 63-64 begins the real development and also the beginning of the first piano solo.  it is solidly though, in the dominant key - which would mean that the piano COULD have started earlier - perhaps after the trill at measure 59?  just some ponderings.  it serves as a little warm up for the fingers and is a sort of fughetta thingy with the bass.  anyway - we have the solo 1 entry with the first theme in dominant (usually it's in tonic and moves to dominant).  this is the (P) theme we first heard.  there is much development as mozart likes to do with the piano outshining everyone.  you see lots of pianistic stuff ( ie - thirds, trills, fast passage work that is improvisatory)

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #10 on: March 28, 2006, 04:39:43 PM »
i might be too imaginative on this - but i see a sort of squished tutti 2 at measure 86.  what gives it away to me is the simple chords that follow (and the typical 'pass the baton' at measure 85 where you have D D D - and then pass the baton).  seems that there is violin sound again in treble and the bass chords are not particulary pianistic or showy.  following this train of thought - the piano solo would begin again at measure 93 at the very end of the measure on the last beat.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 05:08:17 PM »
the more i look at this (and i'm still somewhat of an amateur form and analysis person) the more i am convinced that mozart wanted this piece played with two pianos - alternating them as one would with orchestra and soloist - and yet each part having some pianistic flair.  you have the beginning of the sonata in a very high range (for other instruments - and yet perfectly suited for piano amateur).  at measure 10 would be a good trade off point if one pianist was virtuosic and the other learning.  measure 23 they'd trade places with the amateur taking the (S) group and the virtuoso picking up tutti at measure 38.  it's as if mozart wants to showcase a student.

Offline ashildmb

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 05:15:30 PM »
thanks alot for all of your help! but Iīve asked for different sonatas, so I was wondering if those who have written something here, can write again and tell me wich sonata you are talking about? That would be very helpfull!

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 05:31:33 PM »
i'm taking k 333.  as i see it, the third theme from the orchestral tutti at the beginning (measure 38-39) repeats itself at 134-135.  there is so much variation to the end of the sonata and so much virtuosity that it does seem more like a concerto - or double exposition sonata form.

make sure and get lots of extra opinions!  when you blend them all together you start to see what YOU see in the piece.  it's funny how everyone sees something different in the same pieces.  (kind of like art work).

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 05:41:21 PM »
for some on the last movement:

www.megaessays.com/viewpaper/75490.html

Offline ashildmb

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 05:45:32 PM »
Do you think you can help me a little bit with sonata K. 545 as well? I must really thank you pianistimo! Great work! helps alot!

Offline iumonito

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #16 on: March 30, 2006, 08:33:49 PM »
the more i look at this (and i'm still somewhat of an amateur form and analysis person) the more i am convinced that mozart wanted this piece played with two pianos - alternating them as one would with orchestra and soloist - and yet each part having some pianistic flair.  you have the beginning of the sonata in a very high range (for other instruments - and yet perfectly suited for piano amateur).  at measure 10 would be a good trade off point if one pianist was virtuosic and the other learning.  measure 23 they'd trade places with the amateur taking the (S) group and the virtuoso picking up tutti at measure 38.  it's as if mozart wants to showcase a student.

p, nice job in the other several posts.  This one, though, makes little sense.  Should Mozart wanted such a play, he would have written it that way, and having those resources available it would be unthinkable he would forgo having actual ensamble play, like in K 488.

A better analogy is that this work is like a transcription of a concerto for solo piano.  It is not without precendent (Bach concerto italiano comes to mind, let alone his transcriptions of violin concertos of Vivaldi and others) or sequel (Schumann's original, Alkan's of Mozart, etc.)
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Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 06:48:32 PM »
yes, iumoto, you're probably right!  mozart would have written what he meant.  that's why i say i am definately just guessing on my answers.  for a scholarly approach there's a complete analysis of each movement of all sonatas? in this book:

"mozart and the sonata form"  by joseph ray tobin.  someone else didn't like what he wrote, though, and said that an author by the last name of 'marks' did a better job.  i haven't read either yet, but will look when i go to barnes and noble.

also, i've got some notes from dr. sterling murray.  i think you can reach him by e-mail at smurray@wcupa.edu     (hope that's the right e-mail).  he is an excellent person to ask because he has researched this stuff and written a lot of info about the classical era in general.  he would point you in the general area of where to look for insight on the form, even if he didn't help you analyze it.

i'll start working on K 545.  i'm interested to know these things myself.  wikipedia has some basics on the forms of each movement here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._16%28Mozart%29

hope that helps!  click on 'search for piano sonata in other articles'

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 07:55:45 PM »
my analysis of the K 545 would be different than wikipedia.  i also see this sonata as a 'breaking away' for mozart from traditional forms.  you have him giving you the primary theme in F major at measure 42.  this to me IS NOT the recap.  to me, he decided to have a little fun and make the recap only contain the second theme from measure 13-14 at measure59.  so it's decisively shortened. 

he's having fun, too, with elongating other things.  take the phrase structure of the primary theme at the beginning.  (P) it's the usual 8 bars.  then you see another 8 bars (but woohoo a continuation and smooth transition (T) at measure 9 which adds four bars of similar additional material.  also, he adds this one measure thingy at measure 13 only for the left hand.  so, the (S) theme actually starts a measure after this.  then the (S) theme has an additional four bars (added to the 8) and then a little coda of three bars after the trill.

he's trying add and take away wherever he likes and still make it a smooth transition from form to semi-formless but having a semblance of form.  it's like his chromaticism - it always comes back to tonic and is rooted around the tonic - but likes to stray farther and farther.  maybe like a body missing a leg or an arm.  you have the basic body but things are definately askew.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #19 on: March 31, 2006, 08:04:46 PM »
mozart was an 'artist' composer because he knew how to balance these things that went askew.  he was a master of unifying touches too.  wherever he took away - he added more to unify.  you can find a lot of unifying things in this sonata - and it sort of compensates for what is not 'perfect.' 

it's as if mozart is saying - life isn't perfect - but you make due here - when it isn't perfect there.

Offline iumonito

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Re: help analysing a sonata by mozart!
«Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 02:51:37 AM »
you have him giving you the primary theme in F major at measure 42.  this to me IS NOT the recap.  to me, he decided to have a little fun and make the recap only contain the second theme from measure 13-14 at measure59.  so it's decisively shortened. 

Funny my wife and I were talking about this massage today in our way to the mall.  This is a false recap.  It has the effect fo maintaining the relative harmonic relationship between the first and second subjects, rather than the more common extension of the tonic during the recapitulation to both themes.  In my opinion that F major presentation of the first subject is the beginning of the recap, as otherwise the main subject would not be recapitulated at all.

You can find the same technique in J.S. Bach prelude and fugue in C sharp Major, Book I.  If I think of other later examples I'll let you know.

Cheers!
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