Sorabji -- Preferred Recording?

[alzado]

I was just contacted by the city library and was informed I could pick up a recording of Opus Clavicembalisticum, which had just arrived on interlibrary loan.  It was the John Ogden recording.  It came here to southwest Wisconsin all the way from the library of Wellesley College.  Amazing!

I now see that a newer recording by Geoffrey Madge is now available.  Which is the preferred recording?  I believe I will purchase a copy of this work.

I only had time to hear the first 45 minutes of the recording since I only obtained it yesterday afternoon.  My initial impression -- some of the passages from Opus remind me of  Scriabin, esp. passages from Vers La Flamme.  Does that make any sense?

I do think that too much discussion of Sorabji's biography -- especially, his personal traits and eccentricities -- detracts from the music.  There's a danger of making of Sorabji AND his compositions -- taken together -- into a kind of "cult."  There can be a kind of pretentiousness about this also.  In truth, the music does not need all this jiggery-pokery.  The music stands on its own as very impressive stuff.

I must commend John Ogden.  It would take immense talent to play this material IMHO.

I am indebted to this forum for informing me about this composer and motivating me to obtain the recording.   

For any who have seen the discussions about Sorabji here, but have not yet heard his music played, I heartily recommend you make the effort.  I suspect you will not be disappointed.

[Ruro]

As I understand it, they are both pretty useless recordings regarding actually "Enjoying The Musical Content", as Madge improvises a fair bit from the score (apparently, and was proven by JCarey in some thread I think). And regarding Ogden, I havn't heard his, with the exception of his Fantasia from the OC... which frankly, if all his movements are this wildly interpretted in any varied form, I think it's like (as I understand it from threads) Glen Gould or whatever played Bach.

I think they are good for getting the jist of the general piece, and probably other things as well, like Anaylsis, but being a newbie in this area I wouldn't really know. So tbh, regarding preference, I don't think I could choose one over the other :/ I congratulate the pianists for trying there hand at the recording, I won't ever have a chance myself at it

Oh, as I further understand it, Ogdon may have made a more impressive recording if he wasn't in an unhealthy state of mind...? :/ Deary me...

[Etude]

 Exactly.

I now see that a newer recording by Geoffrey Madge is now available.  Which is the preferred recording?  I believe I will purchase a copy of this work.

I prefer the Ogdon, for the following reason:


Page 250 in John Ogdon's recording of the piece:

Ogdon



Corresponding excerpt from Geoffrey Douglas Madge's live recording of 1983:

Madge

[ahinton]

Whilst the recording by Geoffrey Douglas Madge is "newer" in terms of its 1999 release date, it is of a public performance he gave in 1983, which is before John Ogdon made his recording that was released in 1989, so Ogdon's recording came out long before Madge's on BIS; however, Madge's first performance of OC in 1982 was issued on LP in the Netherlands in 1983 (it has long since been deleted). Apart from Geoffrey Douglas Madge, who is still alive (unlike John Ogdon), only two other pianists have OC in their current repertoire - Daan Vandewalle (who has performed it once) and Jonathan Powell (who has performed it five times) - and, of these, Mr Powell plans to record it as soon as he has two more public performances of it behind him. I have not heard Mr Vandewalle's performance, but I have heard three of Mr Powell's and can confirm that, among their many other virtues, these have been the most textually accurate to date.

Why, or from what source, "Ruro" has apparently arrived at the "understanding" that "Ogdon may have made a more impressive recording if he wasn't in an unhealthy state of mind" is as unclear to me as is its precise intended meaning; te fact that he has nevertheless done so prompts me to return to him his own "deary me"...

Best,

Alistair

[JCarey]

Madge's "playing" of this work is awful. Don't bother with it. Ogdon's interpretation is more honorable than Madge, but VERY flawed. First of all, he plays it too slowly in most parts, and plays a ton of wrong notes. His interpretation is very "bangy" in spots... to the point where it is hard to endure. I would wait for Powell's recording when it's out.

For anyone interested, here are some recordings of Sorabji's shorter works, all played by performers who are capable of playing the music correctly:

In the Hothouse, Michael Habermann - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/sorabji/01%20In%20the%20Hothouse.mp3

Fantaisie Espagnole, Donna Amato - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/sorabji/Fantasia%20Espagnole,%20Amato.mp3

Le Jardin Parfume, Yonty Solomon - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/sorabji/Sorabji%20-%20Le%20Jardin%20Parfume,%20Solomon.mp3

5 Songs for Soprano - https://www.johncareycompositions.com/requests/sorabji/songs/

Enjoy!

[Ruro]

Why, or from what source, "Ruro" has apparently arrived at the "understanding" that "Ogdon may have made a more impressive recording if he wasn't in an unhealthy state of mind" is as unclear to me as is its precise intended meaning; te fact that he has nevertheless done so prompts me to return to him his own "deary me"...

I have read that multiple times, and I think I deciphered it ^_^;;
I believe what you are saying is Ogdon has performed this piece more then once? I'm no doubt wrong, but I thought he only produced One Recording of his performance. As I understand he did suffer some Mental Health problems in the later part of his life, and he was still enduring this whilst the recording of this particular OC Performance took place.
Soz if I didn't understand, that paragraph ya did was just to "Yoda like" compared to your others >_<;;

[ahinton]

I have read that multiple times, and I think I deciphered it ^_^;;
I believe what you are saying is Ogdon has performed this piece more then once? I'm no doubt wrong, but I thought he only produced One Recording of his performance. As I understand he did suffer some Mental Health problems in the later part of his life, and he was still enduring this whilst the recording of this particular OC Performance took place.
Soz if I didn't understand, that paragraph ya did was just to "Yoda like" compared to your others >_<;;

I didn't say anything about how often John Ogdon performed the piece, but since you mention this, I can confirm that he performed it three times to my knowledge - one private performance in Scotland in 1959 and two public ones in London in 1988. You are correct in that he only recorded it once.

Whatever you or anyone else may mean - or think they mean - when referring to Ogdon's "mental health problems", it must surely be accepted that, whatever the flaws in his OC recording, his mental and physical reflexes must have been in a pretty healthy state just to get through it at all. He had a history of problems with schizophrenia but it has to be said that, by the time he came to make that recording, he was probably "suffering" more from the medication regimen that was supposed to help control this; I was present throughout the sessions and can confirm that some of these were very long and arduous and he occasionally omitted to take this medication at the prescribed intervals because he was too wrapped up in what he was doing to remember to do so - and when this happened for any appreciable length of time, his control over what he was actually doing improved. John Ogdon also suffered from quite early on in his career at the hands of a number of people who persisted in pressurising him to do far too much; he was allowed, on the other hand, to record OC in his own time and the only pressures imposed upon him at that time were his own.

What we now need is for someone to ensure that Jonathan Powell gets those two more OC performance dates - and soon - for then he'll make a start on planning his recording of the work, a propsect to which many are already looking forward eagerly, with very good reason.

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

What we now need is for someone to ensure that Jonathan Powell gets those two more OC performance dat...

Someone?—well, is there anything that we can do to help this? It'd be interesting to get members of the PF together to organize a concert somewhere in the states, but it would obviously require a lot of organization and funding (fundraising), etc.,etc,etc., But if anybody else is interested in this type of thing (of course Powell's cooperation would be needed :-P) ... put your thoughts out here...since we are going to make up at least part of the audience in such a hypothetical performance. Being from Chicago, I suggests that Powell returns to Chicago where Madge's performance/recording took place. ;-)

—Ryan

[ahinton]

Someone?—well, is there anything that we can do to help this? It'd be interesting to get members of the PF together to organize a concert somewhere in the states, but it would obviously require a lot of organization and funding (fundraising), etc.,etc,etc., But if anybody else is interested in this type of thing (of course Powell's cooperation would be needed :-P) ... put your thoughts out here...since we are going to make up at least part of the audience in such a hypothetical performance. Being from Chicago, I suggests that Powell returns to Chicago where Madge's performance/recording took place. ;-)

—Ryan

Yes, "SOMEONE" - by which, as it seems you understand, I meant anyone who could organise and arrange funding for such performances. Please be assured that Mr Powell will be only too pleased to "co-operate" by performing the work, provided that all necessary arrangements can be made for him to do so, including organising the venue and funding and publicising the event. You may be interested to know that, if you or anyone else does indeed manage to bring this about in US, it would be only the third complete performance of the work there (the others, as you know, being Madge's in Chicago in 1983 and Powell's in NYC in 2004).

On a related subject, I have no doubt that other forum members might be interested in what you thought of Mr Ullén's first CD of Sorabji's Transcendental Studies...

Good luck!

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

Yes, "SOMEONE" - by which, as it seems you understand, I meant anyone who could organise and arrange funding for such performances. Please be assured that Mr Powell will be only too pleased to "co-operate" by performing the work, provided that all necessary arrangements can be made for him to do so, including organising the venue and funding and publicising the event. You may be interested to know that, if you or anyone else does indeed manage to bring this about in US, it would be only the third complete performance of the work there (the others, as you know, being Madge's in Chicago in 1983 and Powell's in NYC in 2004).

On a related subject, I have no doubt that other forum members might be interested in what you thought of Mr Ullén's first CD of Sorabji's Transcendental Studies...

Good luck!

Best,

Alistair

Great! Will start doing some research soon to see possible venues, etc.

As for Ullén's album of the first twenty-five of Sorabji's “100 Transcendental Studies”:

Some general statements: the sound quality is excellent; Ullén's technique is generally great; the booklet notes are informative but have the same information on specific pieces as Ullén's website (Altarus's notes are much better—props to you Alistair!). In general, I highly recommend this album.

Will publish a more detailed review I am in the process of writing on the Web soon.

—Ryan

[ahinton]

Great! Will start doing some research soon to see possible venues, etc.

As for Ullén's album of the first twenty-five of Sorabji's “100 Transcendental Studies”:

Some general statements: the sound quality is excellent; Ullén's technique is generally great; the booklet notes are informative but have the same information on specific pieces as Ullén's website (Altarus's notes are much better—props to you Alistair!). In general, I highly recommend this album.

Will publish a more detailed review I am in the process of writing on the Web soon.

—Ryan

Excellent - on all fronts! Thanks for the compliment re Altarus's liner notes, although I have in all honesty and fairness to admit that I have not written all that many of them myself!

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

If you enjoy listening to Sorabji you should also listen to recordings by Michael Habermann, he is an amazing Sorabji exponent. Sorabji - Legendary Works For Piano, Michael Habermann.

Two Piano Pieces:1-2. In the Hothouse (1918) [6:05], Toccata (1920) [3:33].
3. Fantaisie Espagnole (1919) [15':13]
4. Valse Fantaisie: Hommage &#136; Johann Strauss (1925) [15:22]
5. Pastiche: Hindu Merchant's Song (Rimsky-Korsakov) (1922) [4:05]
6. Pastiche: Habanera from Bizet's Carmen (1922) [4:38]
7. Pastiche: Chopin's Valse, Op. 64, No. 1 (1922) [4:13]
8. Michael HABERMANN (b.1950): A la maniŹre de Sorabji: "Au clair de la lune" (August 1972) [1:50]

Volume Two: Nocturnes [71:00]
1. Le jardin parfum&#142; - Poem for Piano (1923) [19:05]
2. Nocturne: Dj&#137;m&#148; (1928) [22:12]
3. Gulistan (The Rose Garden) - Nocturne for Piano (1940) [29:32]

Volume Three: Assertive Works [71:16]
1. Introito and Preludio-Corale from Opus Clavicembalisticum (1929-1930) [13:15]
2-4. Prelude, Interlude and Fugue (1920-22) [3:13, 5:44, 6:03]
5. Fragment for Harold Rutland (1926, rev. 1937) [2:47]
6. Fantasiettina sul nome illustre dell'egregio porta Christopher Grieve ossia Hugh M'Diarmid (Tiny Little Fantasy on the Illustrious Name of the Distinguished Poet Christopher Grieve, i.e. Hugh M'Diarmid) (1961) [2:37]
7. "Quľre reliqua hujus materiei inter secretiora" ("Seek the rest of this matter among the things that are more secret") [1940] [16:49]
8. St. Bertrand de Comminges: "He was laughing in the tower" (1941) [20:20]

I personally find that Ogdon and Madges recordings of the OC are pretty inaccurate, but that doesn't at all discredit their recordings. If you can get your hands on the score you can see obvious layers of sound that they both miss simply because of the density of the simultaneous sounds overwhelms them. There is a computer playing the fantasia of the  OC posted by Jcarey which sounds pretty emotionless but really shows you what the notes should be like! Ogdon and Madge get no where near this accuracy.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12408.msg134355.html#msg134355

[prometheus]

My favorite Sorabji recording is Tocatta No.1 by Powell. I will reccomend it to anyone new but interested in mature Sorabji 'baroque style'.