Death

[tryer]

Anyone got any original ideas about death? I've had some strange experiences
(after family members have died) which I can't explain but  I don't think it's my state of mind) but I can't reason it any other way. I'm NORMAL (I play piano!!!!)  and not inclined to fantasy.

Anyone else ? (as it's slighly embarassing to admit somehow).

Tryer

[prometheus]

What?

Original ideas? I have some. I could make some more. But they are fictional. So what do you want to hear?

I am always amazed at those people that say they have had all these strange and unexplainable experiences, I guess you want to talk about that, but I never had one. It really puzzles me how this can be. Surely I am not without imagination, if there is something unexplainable then I must notice it. I mean, I am sharp and observant and I have no problems with absract concepts. Maybe ghosts don't want to 'talk' to me for some reason.
I know other people for some reason observe what they want to see but that is just really strange to imagine. I think that if I tried I would fail at this and my imagination is quite powerful. I even write fantasy novels. So yes, I just can't imagine how one could turn some normal experience into a 'strange experience'. What property do I lack? Really, can someone explain this?

(Out of all the strange experiences a human can have, almost all of them must have something to do with human sociology.)

[thalbergmad]

I'm NORMAL (I play piano!!!!) 

These don't usually go together.

[pianistimo]

that's funny thal.  and, probably true.   

i have been convinced that my father prayed one last prayer for me before he died because i feel that i have always had comfort when i need it.  i think that the last prayers or 'blessings' that a person bestows upon their surviving children is very important to God.  he hears our wishes and desires and even dreams.  if we are more important than the sparrow - then our hearts desires for our children and family will be heard at that important hour.

death is compared to 'sleep' in the bible.  we aren't conscious.  cannot affect the physical world that we lived in (thus seances and all are just concoctions of the mind and demon worship).  ghosts would be in a similar category.  but, talking to God about your lost one isn't bad - and visiting the gravesite to honor your loved one.  even though you know they are not alive - there is something cathartic about telling them how your life is going and how much you miss them.  i think God can save up our words for the ressurrection of the dead.

[berrt]

if we are more important than the sparrow - then our hearts desires for our children and family will be heard at that important hour.

Why do you think we are - and what about last sparrow-wishes for their small ones?
And how will i surely know when my last second has come to unleashe my important wish?

[pianistimo]

many people seemingly come to know when they are nearing natural death by how they feel.  it is when they make their last wills and testaments and final words.  in the OT, blessings were granted by bringing the children in and praying over them.  God was petitioned to do whatever the deceased would not be able to do (protect, bless, pray for healthy and prosperous children/grandchildren).

suppose that in an accident, one may or may not have that last moment of conciousness to make a prayer.  but, you never know how God works and maybe they would somehow. 

[tryer]

I knew it wouldn't be long before God appeared.

Prometheus

My point was these things happened (?or appeared to happen) up to 2 years after the death. My sister went to spiritual meetings and I pooh poohed what she was told at these meetings concerning our mutual sister. I also have to say I had an
'issue' with the sister who died which makes it even stranger. ?Coming back to settle things.   I wouldn't before give this 'ghost thing' the time of day but it was most odd.

Without being flippant maybe you need to be emotionally (?spiritually)  involved in some way and that's why you haven't had an 'experience'.

I know there is no answer.

[prometheus]

The only thing I could say is "You do reallise ghosts do not exist, do you?", but that is a bit harsh. But the fact that this is harsh is something I really don't like. If people still believe in ghosts today, sheesh. But then again only about 2% of the people in the worth are atheists. All the others have beliefs far more extensive, absurd, rich and far-fetched than only believing in ghosts. So I guess this is just the way people are.

But back to my point and your reply. Yes, I do realise uncritical thinking needs to be applied, something that can be based on emotional involvement, but that is not the problem. The problem is that I never see anything where emotional involvement can be applied to to produce ideas as ghosts, and many people have these ideas, or experiences.

I mean I think I can understand that many people have them. But this is just not true. I cannot. I cannot understand how people can create these ideas.

About spirituality, you don't need to have any faith or belief to be spiritual. You don't need to be very irrational to conclude life itself is pointless. Actually if you do then this can only be explained through irrationality; any rational being will conclude that a human, which it's awareness of it's own consciousness, will have problems with this unless spirituality is ignored. Therfore every rational being is spiritual. Those that are not spiritual are often deluded by animalistic, primitive, material tendencies. That's why I got scared last week when I read that the people in the US, and probably many people elsewere, think that being an atheist is a form of materialism and aspiritualism.

[pantonality]

Well if you want to know what happens when you die read the experiences of those who have and came back to tell the tale.

https://www.near-death.com

If you prefer a book there's a new book from author Neale Donald Walsch called Home with God : in a life that never ends.

But you're right you have to have a spiritual mindset to find this information useful.

[lostinidlewonder]

We all came from the same place before we came into this world through our mothers. So we will return to this unknown place when we die. But we all are going to the same place so we never will be apart. What about only for that short time while one lives in a dying body and the other has already died? Are we apart then? Of course not, can't you see life continually being created? The maternity ward has new life coming into the world every day. There is that door of life bring more and more perfectly individual beings into existance every day.

It is staring us in the face, that line between existance in this world and non-existance is so close. We see the door leading back into that unknown realm, death. Why do we fear death so much but love birth? Death is just walking back to where we came from, it is birth! Yes but before death many times we sometimes suffer greatly so it must be bad. Tell me something you have gained in life that hasn't been through suffering? In death you walk through that door to the unknown, those of us who want to understand what it is that we walk through search for an understanding of God. Those who are to afraid close their minds to it.

But when you die you definatly don't linger on in this world as a spirit or ghost. There are definatly unexplained forces in this world but they are not ghosts of our dead family members or friends, just because a psychic says you your dead grandfather tells me he  bought you a red jacket for christmas 79, or the nickname he use to give you started with a P? Wow why do you remember materialistic rubbish when you are dead? Don't believe it for a moment.

[pianistimo]

what a great explaination.  birth and death being birth again.  and, the idea that physical matters don't mean as much after death as they do to us now.  i think that's according to gospel, too.  we are told that when we are ressurrected from 'sleep' that we will be changed (have a different body).  that we will be neither male or female but 'like' the angels - but higher.  we will be 'sons (and daughters) of God.'  many parables speak of the 'kingdom of God.'  so, whether you believe in life after death or not - we will find out if this is true - by being 'awakened' from our sleep of death.  if we find ourselves in an amazing body that neither feels pain or sufferring ever again - it will be worth it on that account alone.  but, if we actually see God and are with him (even as a 'doorkeeper') in His kingdom - that will be even better.  our focus changes from details in this life to seeing how short this life really is.  it's like a seed being planted.  we don't know what we will be like - but when we are changed it will be a much better realization of 'life.'  one where the original intent of God (to make us live forever) with a good creation and with God.  one where we have creative powers and use them for good also.

[lostinidlewonder]

our focus changes from details in this life to seeing how short this life really is.  it's like a seed being planted.  we don't know what we will be like - but when we are changed it will be a much better realization of 'life.'  one where the original intent of God (to make us live forever) with a good creation and with God.  one where we have creative powers and use them for good also.

Our focus will definatly change when we are dead. I was asked a few years ago a pretty tough but interesting question, "Supose I have 10 wifes who I dearly loved through my mortal life but each who had died so I had to remarry. When I pass onto the other world, which of the 10 women would I be with?"

When we die our physical bodies will be recognised by anyone who obserevs us in the afterlife, we are not something totally unknown, our body will be recognised as us, individual. So everyone you know will be known personally to you as if you where standing in front of them today. But our needs for love, companionship of another body has gone, this is the love that existed in our physical life. Since God surrounds in our spiritual life, we are living with God (in a much more obvious way) we wil find that we are all connected loving each other with all our power through our one love for God. By worshipping God in our deaths we love each and everyone other raised soul around us. It is a totally different concept of love. To be loved by everyone surrounding you as if they where your closest partner. What an amazing concept.

[pianistimo]

i never thought of it exactly that way, but i believe that you are right.  otherwise, why would Christ say 'they will neither marry, or give in marriage.'  and, 'they will be neither male nor female.'  what a strange thing to us now!  it is even somewhat repulsive because we don't understand it.  how can we be neither male nor female and how can we love everyone equally or so much more than we think we do now.  but, it must be possible and it must be necessary to live in a world that is at peace.  the world obviously doesn't know how to make peace right now.  so, God must have some kind of idea how goodness and peace work together.  it's all like 'seeing through a glass darkly.'

[pantonality]

I like all this discussion of unconditional love. So here's a thought, what if all of us, everyone was connected together in the spirit realm. What if the fact that we're separate beings in this life is an illusion that we accept to experience life in this world. Didn't Jesus say "I and the father are one" and "All this and more will you do also." I've often wondered what was meant by those phrases. Still I offer that more for those who care what the Bible says as precedent for the idea, which is in fact ancient, that all of existence is in fact a single being. That doesn't mean that individuality is lost when we cross over, on the contrary, I believe we retain our individuality yet gain access and insight into the rest of creation.

Or not, nobody really knows what lurks beyond death's door, except those who have been there before (dead that is).

[pianistimo]

yes.  it's a mystery.  we just won't know until we die really.  and, if we will be ressurrected and judged individually by acts we did in this life - then our reward will be to made aware that our choices in this life did affect the next (ie accepting Christ's sacrifice).  if we are also given a chance to 'change our tune' towards God - then there will be a moment to say ' i'm sorry, will you forgive my sins.'  i count on that one for my dear grandfather who was a sweet man but didn't really think one way or the other about God (because he never talked about it).  i don't see how God would just shut him out without letting him see (as doubting thomas was able to) Christ ressurrected and his own body ressurrected.  (my grandfather was cremated).

[thalbergmad]

I is gonna top myself, so i will report what it is like tomorrow.

[ted]

It seems to me that the arguments against consciousness persisting after death are extremely difficult to refute. One particularly lucid statement of these exists at

https://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

At least I have never read a refutation which satisfactorily explains the phenomena described in this essay and in others like it. Most arguments to the contrary are in fact based on emotion and mysticism rather than reason. While anybody is at liberty to frame an ideal as he pleases, emotional, mystical or otherwise, it would seem prudent to avoid impossibilities and contradictions.

[prometheus]

Yes, that article, though it might be a bit long and complex for some theists, has all the strong arguments.

I didn't get if it actually had the 'god would have created humans without the need for a divine battery'-argument was also somewhere in there since I really only quickly scanned it.

But it is kind of pointless because people that belief in souls never really want to reason on the subject.

[Siberian Husky]

I've had a few experiences in which I attempt to dive into the idea of death. Although i am always afraid to TRULY embrace the FACT of death itself. I acknowledge it as a given and as an inevitability, and at times analyze death for its spiritual significance and symbolism in life.

I do not believe that death is the end of everything. I am a firm believer that there is 'life' after death. Not necesarily human related, or anything i could even imagine to grasp, but i do believe that there is some sort of energy after life. I believe in some biblical notions that one is subject to judgement in regards to the life they have lived on earth, and i believe in Buddhist ideologies such as karma and reincarnation to an extent, which is also shared by Hindu belief systems.

I am inclined to believe that life on earth, or what we people know as life here on earth, is a step of many, whether it be the first, the second, the third, i do not know. This idea stems from my acceptance of reincarnation. I dare not to be so bold as to state that i lived as a dog in my past life, or i shall live a life of a different being reflective of how i live my life now, but I heavily believe that once we die, our internal energy, spirit, soul, how ever you want to put it, remains on earth, or atleast a portion of it does, and further contributes to the foundation of life in some way shape or form, which is not limited to just a rebirth.


When attempting to extract concepts about the idea of death, it is irresistable to strike up the notion of God, whether there is one, whether what sex he /she is, or if it even has a sex, or if there are more than one. As much as i hate to really turn this into a religious dispute, i'd like to share my VERY brief deductive idea of what God is.

-yes i believe in a higher being, or higher power
-yes i believe that we are to be judged by this greater power/being post-life
-no this higher being is not a direct creator, we are by products of his creations, but what im saying is..i outrule the notion of fate by believing we humans hold great weight in regards to how we live our lives and the choices me make..i do not believe that everything is predetermined, because this would then cause a paradoxical flux in the idea that we human beings can make the attempt to be good and be in persuit of the truth..thus creating the unfairness of individuals predetermined to a fate of hell by Christian belief (this example was created not in blasphemy, but to construct concrete exemplification only).....confusing...but this idea is very stable in the most mathematical and..logistical sense
~allow me to rectify my train of thought~

In the most simplictic interpretation of my belief structure.

We live our lives here on earth. Die. We then are evaluated based on an intricate system of the choices we made throughout life. This judgement is then a one on one review of your life, collectively, including everything you have experienced, and your quantitative reactions to what you have exprerienced in life.

This kind of judgement allows for zero error.

For example.

You become successful in life financially.
You donate half of your entire income and earnings to the needy.
Needy= Homeless, Religious groups, Shelter homes for the unfortunate, animal shelters, etc etc
--------
NOW...upon first impression, yes the deed itself is good, but does this make you a good person?..* this is where the ultimate judgement after life involves itself..the judgement that includes the idea of God and any post-life evaluation belief be it christian/catholic/spiritual/muslim/jewish/the list goes on..

Lets say this person donated this money in order to make him/herself look good amongst his/her peers or those in his/hers immediate sphere of influence.

This would then rule you as incompatent, morally..In an absolute evaluation of your life, taking the example of the money donations and his/her prime motive for donating, what truly matters is your relationship with the absolutes in life.

This relationship can be related with.
A Christian's relationship with God
A Muslim's relationship with Allah
A Buddhist's relationship with his/her philosophies and moral teachings
etc
etc

Pardon my long winded explanation of death, and i apologize if i left anything out including certain religious mentionings, this post was solely intended for grasping the general idea of my belief system and my belief system only

This post was intended only to educate you viewers about what i believe, not about what I state as right or true. I am in firm understanding that everyone lives by their own truths based on their interpretations of life and the elements of life, death, and religion.

I will not respond to any attacks or allegations made on behalf of what i have stated, especially in the form of other imposing their religious beliefs even if its supported by religious text and/or experiences they have had.

My explanation may have been vague and basic at best, but to sum it up. I am very happy with my life and generate most of my philosophical and religious beliefs through experience/ teachings/ inspirational figures/ and my sole intuition.

I hope i have not offended anyone with my ideas and wish to encourage nothing less than mature, intelligent, and stimulating conversation.

Thank you all for listening

[lostinidlewonder]

Here's what I think.

You live a life, how you live it is irelivant, what you do in your life is irelivant. All deeds and things you do in this world amount to zero.

What do you think about that? Well this is what I guess perfect judgement will be like. Every single one of us deserves to go to hell when we die. Not a single one of us is worthy of "heaven" or eternal life. There are NO deeds that you can do in your life now that will allow you to look worthy in Gods eyes!

What we need is acceptance of this, thus we deal with sin.

[lisztisforkids]

Do we exist after we die? My answer is yes.

[yooniefied]

What a controversial topic...I really like your post, Pantonality.

Everyone has a glass through which they view the world, and the world beyond. Not any other person will ever see the same picture.

I try to stay open-minded to many possibilities, because the truth is, I don't know the answer. 

Do I think there is some sort or form of life after death? Yes.
But it probably won't be anything like what we've fantasized about!

While, heaven and hell and purgatory theory seem a bit extreme and romanticized for my tastes, the idea of being reborn in some way, at least emotionally before entering eternal sleep, perplexes me. Reincarnation makes me wonder.

Perhaps, this life we face now is hell...
Perhaps, we are just God's dream.
Perhaps, we have no real "purpose".

It's all speculation.

I don't claim to know anything profound about death or life after or death, if even such things exist. I am no extremist in any way.
But at the same time, I'm sure there has to be something more than dropping dead one day and that being the end of it all. All of the wonderful memories, and the feelings, and the times you share with people, and the music...it can't simply amount to nothing.
Perhaps, that's all it is, a feeling. A temporary escape. Wishful thinking. Something in our minds to help us deal with the harsh reality.
But I'd like to think it's something more, wouldn't you?
And if I'm wrong, at least I lived with the hope of being healed and receiving some sort of peace someday.

If death is nothing else, it is peace.


I did have a very strange experience a few months ago that I would like to share.
It has changed the way that I look at life and death and the human mind, dramatically:
My best friend of 12 years, for the first time, mentioned suicide. He knew me, of all people wouldn't judge him for bringing up such a topic.
We were at the beach, spending a normal evening there like we normally did, getting lung cancer and talking about life. Running through the final remains of the winter snow, acting like 8-year-olds and 23-year-olds all at the same time, and bitching without selfconsciousness, about how horrible we really felt.
Most people would be intimidated by the depth of those conversations we had. We were entirely vulnerable with one another.
Of course, I knew instinctively that he would never ever threaten such a thing for attention, but only because he was truly considering it.
I have never felt more helpless. I could feel his pain, and I just wished I could take it all on for him.
We talked about things for hours, cried together, until dawn, and he seemed a little better. He lied to me, something we never did to each other. He promised me that he would be okay.
I realize in hindsight that he was trying not to scare me. He did not want me to stop him. And he knew I would never have left him alone if he was still feeling down.
He always was so cool and composed, like he owned the world.
I made a fatal error. I took him home. For the last time, really.
I passed out in bed as soon as I got home, my clothes and shoes still on. I was exhausted. I woke up..maybe three hours later (?) and the weirdest feeling had overcome me. I was paralyzed with fear, I almost felt like I was being suffocated. I was literally coughing for air. I laid there, consciously reminding myself to breathe...and I swear I felt a hand on my shoulder. Only for a second.
Now I know it seems SO weird and extreme, and I always laugh at people when they say they had a similar experience, but, no matter how many times I try and rationalize the situation, I still cannot deny what I really felt.
A peace instantly had come over me. I felt relaxed, in fact, I was falling asleep again. I remember hearing the rain outside.
I just kind of instinctively knew that he did it.
A few hours later, I got a phonecall. Kiyo had taken his life within hours of me dropping him off at his place...and he hung himself.

Perhaps, my only way of dealing with the guilt and the pain was by having that moment "with him".

I don't really mean to be so morbid, and to post such a dramatic story on a forum, but it has really changed me. I will never ever question my intuition again, nor will I ever ever laugh at someone when they say they had a "supernatural" experience.
To me, death is very real. I have lost so many people to death in my lifetime, including both of my parents, one set of grandparents (though they never met me), and many friends and relatives. 

I guess I will never know where they are or how they all are,
but my heart would like to believe that he had come to tell me that he really was okay.

Besides, even in the bible, Jesus came back in a "ghostly" form...that always comforts me when I feel that my thoughts have become too "mystical".

But why worry about the back cover of a book when most of the pages are still empty?

[zheer]

   My thoughts on death, i think to live is to suffer and through struggle we grow, thus death is the time where we struggle and suffer no more.

[pianistimo]

agreed about not having to struggle and suffer after death.  yooniefied,  thanks for sharing ur story.  i tend to believe that it was Jesus Christ who laid a hand on ur shoulder.  it's very interesting ur experience.  my mom woke up at 3 am in the morning when my dad died, and said something almost exactly as u did - except no hand on the shoulder.  she said she just 'knew' that he died.  it was as if something/one woke her up.  then, shortly after that she got the phone call from the hospital. 

when u are very close to a person - i think it's really amazing that there's this connection.  u must be so glad u spent so much time with ur friend - and ur right, there's no way u can stop someone from doing anything to themselves if their mind is set on it.  but, the fact u stayed with him ALL NIGHT is a huge sign of a GREAT friendship.  most people would spend a few hours to half the night - but u are quite a loving person to share so much and make him see that u understand how he feels.

i know some don't like bible verses - but i can't help quoting one about king david.  Christ mentioned 'he is dead and sleeping' somewhere.  the only person in the bible unaccounted for is enoch who was simply 'taken' and his body not found.  i really have no idea what that means.  maybe God allowed him a simpler 'death' than anyone else because he was so close to God.  moses body was never found either.  perhaps this made it so that ancient people would not 'worship' the body of someone who was righteous.

i think there is somewhere, though, that says 'as in adam all die...but in Christ - are made alive.'  and, in revelations it talks about the 'first death' and the 'second death.'   as i understand it - if a person is judged only according to works (which as lostinidle said - amount to zero) then that is where the second death comes in.  all these works are 'burned up' and we are, too, a SECOND time.  if we accept Christ - and as i understand it - it should be now - according to the parable in matthew about lazarus and the rich man...and care about others as ourselves but also realize that our works are merely the  result of our best attempts and that we NEED Christ to cover our sins - then we will be accepted at the ressurrection of the dead and LIVE FOREVER. 

the fact that our bones remain are testament to the physical part of our bodies remaining.  what God does with our spirit or soul is the part that he can make a spiritual body again - or show us later how he can make us invisible or visible (as He did when He was ressurrected).  He never used his form to scare people - but to reassure and comfort.

i don't doubt people who say they feel 'hand on shoulder.'  i once had this experience in a different setting.  it was at church right during the 'communion' or taking of bread and wine.  we were waiting for the second part and someone put a hand on my right shoulder (many years ago now).  it was a pressure exactly of a hand.  not a lot of pressure, but enough to feel a sort of comfort.  i was not bothered at the time (that i knew of) but somehow felt a reassurance -especially since i immediately turned around and everyone was leaned back and either reading bible or just looking straight.  i didn't dare tell anyone because they'd think i was nuts.  so, i didn't tell anyone until much later.  it's really difficult to tell someone that u might have had an experience that would be hard to prove in a court of law.  not that it would get there - but u know what i mean.

[gorbee natcase]

Death is as the swtching off of a light bulb

[pianowolfi]

For me death and all that may come after it is just fascinating. It is also subject of many musical pieces. F.e. Schubert, Rach, Liszt, Beethoven were in a permanent preoccupation with that subject. For me music is like the world I expect we go to after death. For me music is a sort of message coming from there. When we play or compose we are right in touch with that world. Listen to the song "Der Wegweiser" from Schuberts "Winterreise" or to Beethoven's Sonata op. 111, they will tell you exactly what I mean.