bach partita #1 gigue, fingering

[christine612]

Hi!
I just looked at the gigue from bach's first partita.  My edition says to use RH to cross over the left hand, but i know that most ppl don't play it that way.  In the footnotes, it says that Bach wrote it this way, but Czerny changed it later (to LH crossing over).  Would you follow's Bach's original fingering? or the new fingering?

[sauergrandson]

Bach composed the Partitae for the harpsichord; two keyboards. I guess Czerny was thinking in piano, only one keyboard. Maybe Czerny's is more comfortable, but crossing hands is more elegant, and "baroque". I cannot imagine Scarlatti, by example, without crossing hands.

[christine612]

Sorry, I think you may have misinterpreted me.  I meant that my edition has RH crossing over, but other editions has LH crossing over (revised by Czerny).

[bernhard]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/board,2/topic,16935.2.html#msg181218

Czerny´s is not an authoritative or even good edition of Bach´s works.

Usually the left hand crosses over the right (I personally find it much more comfortable). However, it is possible to do it with the right hand crossing over the left. It is even possible to play it with no crossing of hands at all (provided you have big hands), and Siloti used to do just that.

However, crossing of hands in this piece is essential because of the bravura visual element of it. This is meant to be a virtuoso display, and the public is always impressed by extensive hand-crossing (even though, ironically, it is far easier to play it with hands crossing than without, a la Siloti).

Have a look here for more tips on this piece:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2384.msg20598.html#msg20598
(how to practise the Giga of Partita 1)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[sauergrandson]

Czerny saw Beethoven playing the WTC. Therefore, he's an authoritative editor. (That is my opinion).

[bernhard]

Czerny saw Beethoven playing the WTC. Therefore, he's an authoritative editor. (That is my opinion).

No, he was not.

He was just  a good editor of the way Beethoven played the WTC. And as such, his editions of Bach have great academic and historical interest since they inform us on romantic (and usually misguided) conceptions of Bach´s performance.

Most (if not all) heavily fingered and added non-urtext editions represent the editor´s way of playing. The astute reader can intuit much about the technique and way of playing of famous pianists by examining their editions (e.g. Mikuli´s Chopin, Arrau´s Beethoven Sonatas, Czerny´s WTC, Tureck´s Italian Concerto). If that is your interest (and there is no reason why it should not be), then Czerny´s editions are a must. However, make no mistake here. Although these editions do reveal ways of the hand, they will rarely be useful because technique is ultimately personal You may be amazed at Arrau´s fingerings for the Beethoven Sonatas, but it will be very unlikely they will be useful to you except in informing you how personal technique actually is.

Besides, pianos of Czerny´s (and Beethoven´s) times had very different properties of sustaining poser and volume, so most of Czerny´s performance directions (e.g. pedal and dynamics) might have been appropriate for his piano, but would be a disaster in a modern piano (e.g. Beethovben´s own direction on the first movement of the Moonlight sonata to play the whole movement with the damper pedal depressed – a very necessary direction on a fortepiano of the 1790s, but a total absurdity in a modern piano).

Ultimately one should work from Urtext editions (where things like fingering are omitted for the very good reason that what matters is not the finger you use, but the sound you produce, and different people will need to investigate their own best fingering in order to bring the appropriate sound), and even so, composer´s directions should be informed by further research (e.g. like the example of the moonlight above).

Here is Ralph Kirkpatrick´s opinion (“Interpreting Bach´s WTC” – Yale) to get you started in your research:

In his original preface of 1837 Czerny claims to transmit what he remembers of Beethoven´s performances of the preludes and fugues. This sort of recollection is always to be taken with a large pinch of salt. From the perspective of today I must say that I find it utterly impossible to take the Czerny edition seriously”.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[christine612]

so..........
I'll stick to RH crossing over?  I find my RH is more accurate on the notes than my LH.