Blüthner Pianos

[alejo_90]

I have an upright one in my house, and I like it very much. There's a Blüthner Grand Piano in my school and I also like it very much, maybe more than Steinway. It's by far the best piano I've played on.

What do you think?

[cloches_de_geneve]

I believe you. I recently visited a convent and there was a Bluethner Grand in one room; I tried it and -- miracle. I think Bluethner have the most beautiful sound, better than Steinway and any other pianos, with the possible exception of the old Bechsteins (pre WWII) and Fazioli.

[alejo_90]

I believe you. I recently visited a convent and there was a Bluethner Grand in one room; I tried it and -- miracle. I think Bluethner have the most beautiful sound, better than Steinway and any other pianos, with the possible exception of the old Bechsteins (pre WWII) and Fazioli.

Agreed

I have a LP of Emil Gilels playing Chopin's Sonata in B and three polonaises: Op.40 1 y 2, and the Heroic. Wonderful Interpretations and the sound of the piano was beautiful. Then I looked on the box and it sayed that it was a Bechstein . I haven't seen one in my whole life, but I like it very much. I wonder if it was aslo a Bechstein the one Gilels used to record the Beethoven Sonatas. I couldn't know since my cds of those were copied from a friend of mine a long time ago. 

Ps:Do you know?
Ps2:Has someone got an mp3 of Gilels playing the Heroic Polonaise? Please I really need that one !

[gruffalo]

just happens to be that the only bluthners (two of em) that i have ever played on were really clapped out. it was relatively in tune, but the touch was horrible and irregular and not solid enough. it had a great sound, but in my view, no matter how great a piano sounds, the touch has to be perfect.

[alejo_90]

just happens to be that the only bluthners (two of em) that i have ever played on were really clapped out. it was relatively in tune, but the touch was horrible and irregular and not solid enough. it had a great sound, but in my view, no matter how great a piano sounds, the touch has to be perfect.

That's very true.

[pianalex]

I play a 6' bluthner from 1922 which sounds fab  - warm and velvety, and has a wonderful touch despite having the patent action.  It sounds totally seductive in the Faure barcarolle I'm learning, but works for Scarlatti, Beethoven...  Debussy owned, and  was full of praise for a similar one, apparently.

[Graf Zahl]

Greetings from the origin-city of the Blüthner-pianos!

Even despite my local-patriotism I have to say I like Blüthner-instuments the most. Whenever I play a Blüthner, I never have to think about “how” to touch the key, I simply imagine the music and the music comes very naturally. This is an aspect of playing, Blüthner-instruments are unmatched in my experience.
But there are a few things to be aware of: Most Blüthners don’t have the power to compete with an orchestra (I don’t have any experience with the newest concert-grandes though). Blüthner produced extraordinary good pianos even in the GDR-time till 1990, but most of these instruments went into the SU. Especially upright-pianos from that time tend to feel like “plastic” for whatever reason.
Pre-1945 or past-1990 Blüthners are very forgiving and therefore are suited for solo-recitals very much, but I’d not be too sure to be happy to have such a piano for practice and then go to competitions or classes playing a Steinway. But I think there are already some more unforgiving instuments.
I am lucky to be able to play different Blüthners in a great store in the old city-hall, so I can tell you that the newest uprights are excellent! I’ve never played such a great upright. Though they are expensive, I’d prefer those to some smaller grande-pianos (Yamaha, Kawai...). In some years one of them will be mine (or a grande of course).

When I’ll have my first 100-minutes recital in 2007, I’ll make sure to play on a Blüthner.

[tompilk]

they are nice and smooth, but for me i find them not powerful enough... at least the one i played on wasnt...
Tom

[tosca1]

I have long been a fervent admirer of Blüthner pianos and for many years I had a circa 1902 vertical model. It is very heartening to read Graf Zahl's comments from Leipzig, the home of these lovely pianos and to know that the old firm is again producing instruments of distinction.
After World War 2, the new Blüthner pianos were disappointing and even in the 70s and 80s, the Blüthner factory was producing pianos that had none of the tonal magic of the pre war instruments.  Now, it seems that production has improved and recent posts on this forum affirm the quality and beauty of sound of new Blüthners.
Debussy loved his Blüthner grand piano and while they may not have the brilliance of sound of Steinway, they have much warmth and subtlety of tonal colour.
Robert.

[pianalex]

Alain Planes and Artur Pizzaro have both recently released discs of french(debussy/ravel) music played on vintage specimens of the Bluthner marque

[andyd]

Pizzaro uses Bluthner for his concerts in the UK, eg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/performanceon3/pip/fkor7/
The new Model 1 he used for the 'Performance' concerts was in the Bluthner showroom a few days after the last concert and I played on it.  Beautiful sound.

Andy

[alejo_90]

BTW what are your favourites?

Mine are Bluthner, Steinway & Bosendorfer

[wzkit]

It would be hard to pin down a particular brand as a "favourite", simply because at this level of quality,  there's something to enjoy about each brand. Each brand - or more precisely, each *individual piano* would suit a different mood or a different kind of music. For example, Bluthner would be an excellent piano for Debussy, Steinway for Rachmaninoff, Bosdenorfer for Mozart etc. I would choose Bluthner if I were to play purely lyrical music - the 4th aliquot string really makes those treble lines sing!

Personally, considering my budget, and my particular circumstances, I chose a Sauter which I found to be of extremely high quality (arguably comparable to many Tier 1 pianos including Bluthner), excellent value for money. The Sauter Delta that I chose is extremely versatile, capable of both extremely soft, as well as extremely powerful playing, with a fresh, deep and clear tone. Very clear,transparent and singing treble (somewhat like Bluthner but different), with more power in the bass. Hard to describe with precision except to say that it has a completely unique sound, as unique as say Bluthner or Bosendorfer.

[gfiore]

 I would not define Bösendorfer as suitable only for Mozart etc. The new models 185, 214, and 280 are capable of handling Bach through Rachmaninov. They have a powerful bass, and very good projection in the treble. This was well thought out through their scale designs. The 213 model when introduced in 1990, was conceived with the goal of  competing with the S&S B. The new 214 went a step further, and when well prepped, can blow smoke around the model B.

[andyd]

Oscar Peterson plays Bosendorfers a lot for his jazz.  I don't think you can limit any piano to any composer or period.  I play traditional and smooth jazz mainly and I chose Bluthner.

Andy

[wzkit]

I won't say Bosendorfer is only "suitable" for Mozart etc, but rather, given its tonal characteristics, would best excel in Mozart. Incidentally I also can't also see why a Bosendorfer would not be great for Debussy as well, although some might still prefer a Bluthner for that. Of course it is understood that a well prepared Bosendorfer would do reasonably well in Rachmaninoff too, but based on my own experience, in a situation where I would be given a choice of all these pianos, I would still prefer to have different pianos for different repertoire, so as to best bring out the different characteristics in each.

[andyd]

Wz, you've obviously given some thought to this.  What repertoire do you think a Steinway best suited to?  A Yamaha?  A Fazioli?  And of course a Bluthner?

Andy

[wzkit]

Because of its dynamic and tonal range, I would think of Steinway as a very versatile instrument. I would think a Steinway, voiced appropriately would suit most Romantic repertoire and 20th century repertoire very well, in particular Liszt, Schumann, Rachmaninoff and Chopin. Horowitz's Steinway (though doctored) comes close to my idea of the perfect instrument for much of the repertoire he chose to play. That said, one should bear in mind that every instrument is different, particularly so among Steinways.

Most Yamahas I have tried (with the exception of the S6) have a thin, lean and penetrating sound, very clear, but perhaps not the most lyrical tone. Also I personally find the bounciness and speed of the Yamaha action e particularly appealing, very easy to play soft with minimal effort. This clarity and action would be very suited for music where precision of attack and leaness is desired. I would imagine Yamaha to be suitable repertoire for some pop and other "hard rock" music. There are a number of classical pianists who have made a good case for Yamaha - Richter, Gould and more recently Frederic Chiu. Chiu's recordings of Prokofiev's piano music use a Yamaha CF-IIIs. THe sound is lean and focused, not rich and warm perhaps, but never muddy. 

I've not tried enough Bluthners to make a sure decision, but I can say the one Bluthner that I tried would have been a very good piano for lyrical music that requires the right hand to sing above a quiet bass. Think of Chopin Nocturnes. Also the rather ethereal nature of the Bluthner sound makes it ideal for impressionistic repertoire, I should think.

Having not tried any Faziolis, I am in no position to comment. I would think Sauter is somewhat on the versatile side as well, but in a different manner from Steinway.

[Axtremus]

What repertoire do you think a Steinway best suited to?

Everything acoustic piano. If you find some repertoire that is not suited on a Steinway, just go find another Steinway.

A Yamaha?

Which Yamaha? A digital, a U-series, a C-series, an S-series? With Yamaha's extremely broad keyboard product portfolio, I cannot imagine any repertoire that would not work "extremely well" with at least one Yamaha.

A Fazioli?

Everything acoustic piano, excepting perhaps honky-tonk. I have a hard time imagining any Fazioli emulating a honky-tonk piano -- it's not that versatile.

And of course a Bluthner?

No experience on new Blüthner.

[andyd]

Well I was thinking of concert grands of the 7 to 9 foot variety.  If you're going to compare they've got to be at least pretty similar.  Of the pianos you...Ax & Wz have mentioned, I've not played any Sauter, nor a 9ft Yamaha or Kawai or Faz. 
I know what you are both getting at, it's just you adjust your playing to any (new)piano.  Yamaha is used by pop and jazz because they can be thumped and bright, but to me they can be played in quite a warm mellow way that sounds quite suitable for classical chopin.  They are not to my taste generally but that's not the point.  People associate Bechstein with the clarity of Mozart or whatever, yet to me that sound can also be good for the jazz I love.   

Slightly off topic but related, it's a shame Steinway has such a stranglehold on the concert scene so we don't hear all the other good brands available.  Everyone knows them, is used to playing them, they're reliable.  Yet I've played some average new D's and B's.  Maybe that is a comment on the dealer preparation.

Did you see the thread over on the pianofacts forum where Geroge K listed pianos he liked, and then gave the same list of pianos as ones for which he'd played some that did not 'grab' him?
It got me thinking in reverse.  I like Bosies, etc etc, but there are only two brands of piano for which I can say every new model I've played has 'grabbed' me.  Stuart (but I've only played one of each of the two sizes so that may not count) and... Bluthner.  From the model C to the 1, I find them all really, really nice for their size.  The model 1 and 2 especially of course.  Again this might be a comment on the London dealer preparation.

And finally, on action, I try not to let it influence my likes and dislikes, but if I had to list the best actions I've tried, I'd say Stuart, Fazioli, Steinway, Bechstein, Bluthner.

Andy 

[iumonito]

I would not define Bösendorfer as suitable only for Mozart etc. The new models 185, 214, and 280 are capable of handling Bach through Rachmaninov. They have a powerful bass, and very good projection in the treble. This was well thought out through their scale designs. The 213 model when introduced in 1990, was conceived with the goal of  competing with the S&S B. The new 214 went a step further, and when well prepped, can blow smoke around the model B.

Dear Curry,

Although I admire your deep and broad knowledge of pianos in general and of Bosendorfers in particular, I must disagree based on my experience with these pianos.  Every single Bosendorfer I have ever played (which admitedly are not that many, perhaps three dozen, of which about ten are from the vintage you describe) had a lovely tone, light and not very deep action (likely my layman's way of describing a low hammer strike ratio?) and had the whole spectrum of sound from ppp to mf. 

When faced with loud Rachmaninov, Scriabin and Prokofiev these pianos have sounded violated, not louder, but with thumps and thuds all over the place.  So to achieve a musical result I have found it necessary to make a singing mf the climax of the most thundering section no matter what, and scale everything else down.  Kind of like playing a clavichord.

My experience with Bluthner pianos is the opposite.  My experience playing them is that when properly prepped these instruments are not weak at all and can handle anything from a Brahms intermezzo, a bach Sarande or a Debussy soft texture to the most percussive Prokoviev or luscious Rachmaminov or Liszt.  I have never encountered a Bosendorfer I can say the same about, even though I have played more Boses than Bluthners.

For me at least, Bose is good (and very good at it) only for Mozart, Haydn and Schubert.  I have never tried, but I would assume J.C. Bach would work as well, but that's about it.  Not enough bite for J.S. Bach, not enough braun for Beethoven or anything after (including Ravel and Debussy, who are the other two I hear people raving about how well suited Bose is for).

My opinion, of course.  Admittedly not as well informed as yours.  And in flagrant disagreement with such great artists as Backhaus, Oscar Peterson and Andre Previn, all of whom favored Bose.