for all Bach enthusiasts

[ada]

What is the usual progression through Bach?

I've done a prelude, inventions 1, 4, 7 and 8 recently and have started on a two part invention (a limited rep I know) and am wondering what pieces I lshould consider for say the next year - a fugue, a toccata etc.

What's your personal progression been from first Bach to most recent? I'm interested to know.

[bernhard]

The usual (pedagogical) progression, used by Bach himself is:

1.   Little Book of Anna Magdalena Bach
2.   2 voice inventions
3.   Sinfonias (3 voice inventions) – French Suites
4.   English Suites – Partitas
5.   WTCI
6.   WTCII
7.   Toccatas
8.   Other (Italian Concerto, Chromatic fantasia, Fernch Overture, etc.)
9.   Goldberg variations

See here for more details:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4679.msg44307.html#msg44307
(List of Bach keyboard works)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5323.msg50895.html#msg50895
(Grades for all Inventions, sinfonias, French and English suites)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7303.msg72931.html#msg72931
(grades for all partitas)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4802.msg45607.html#msg45607
(favourites from the WTC – list of progressive difficulty)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ada]

whoah so I have got a little way to go eh? Well at least I am on the right track.

Thank you ever so much bernhard, most instructive.

[bernhard]

You are welcome.

[sauergrandson]

I Knew (and I did it) English Suites and Partitas must be studied after WTC II, for they are basically not in order to technique, but to style and refining.

[contrapunctus]

Make sure you look at Bach's little preludes and fugues also, they are prep's for the WTC.

And to Bernhard:

Don't you think the Partitas from the Klavierubung would come after the WTC in terms of difficulty?

[BoliverAllmon]

I went from the inventions into the easier WTC pieces.

[mcgillcomposer]

The usual (pedagogical) progression, used by Bach himself is:

1.   Little Book of Anna Magdalena Bach
2.   2 voice inventions
3.   Sinfonias (3 voice inventions) – French Suites
4.   English Suites – Partitas
5.   WTCI
6.   WTCII
7.   Toccatas
8.   Other (Italian Concerto, Chromatic fantasia, Fernch Overture, etc.)
9.   Goldberg variations

See here for more details:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4679.msg44307.html#msg44307
(List of Bach keyboard works)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5143.msg49995.html#msg49995
(Inventions and sinfonias: Bach’s pedagogical order of difficulty)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1911.msg14853.html#msg14853
(Invention no. 8 – relative difficulty of the inventions – progressive order of Bach’s keyboard works – CD  recommendations)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3187.msg27993.html#msg27993
(order of difficulty of the inventions)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5323.msg50895.html#msg50895
(Grades for all Inventions, sinfonias, French and English suites)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7303.msg72931.html#msg72931
(grades for all partitas)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4802.msg45607.html#msg45607
(favourites from the WTC – list of progressive difficulty)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Dear Bernhard,

Firstly, I would like to say that I appreciate your posts on this board, which are always very informative an relevant. Nonetheless, I have a small problem with this post. Where did you get the information about this pedagogical progression of works? I have studied virtually every primary source available on Bach's teaching methods as a PhD student, and I have never come across such information.  Are you sure you did not get the information from a secondary source, or even a tertiary source that, by somehow putting together fragments of very unfounded ideas, came up with this as a list?

Anyway, I mean no disrespect, but I am genuinely curious; as far as I know, this exact list from a primary source would be a revolution in Bach studies.

[BoliverAllmon]

bernhard is revolutionary!!!!

[mcgillcomposer]

bernhard is revolutionary!!!!

I agree, but it doesn't mean he's always 100% correct. I'm here to learn from people, not to base my knowledge on the argument of authority.

[da jake]

He thinks Tureck's Bach is good. That tells me all I need to know. 

[contrapunctus]

Dear Bernhard,

Firstly, I would like to say that I appreciate your posts on this board, which are always very informative an relevant. Nonetheless, I have a small problem with this post. Where did you get the information about this pedagogical progression of works? I have studied virtually every primary source available on Bach's teaching methods as a PhD student, and I have never come across such information.  Are you sure you did not get the information from a secondary source, or even a tertiary source that, by somehow putting together fragments of very unfounded ideas, came up with this as a list?

Anyway, I mean no disrespect, but I am genuinely curious; as far as I know, this exact list from a primary source would be a revolution in Bach studies.

If you analyze the works themeselves, this progression makes perfect sense in terms of all aspects of Bachs music. And, Mcgillcomposer, I have seen this progression nearly everywhere in all the stuff I have read, it seems quite common. I don't know what you are reading, but, then again, I don't have a Ph.D. in the subject.

[mcgillcomposer]

If you analyze the works themeselves, this progression makes perfect sense in terms of all aspects of Bachs music. And, Mcgillcomposer, I have seen this progression nearly everywhere in all the stuff I have read, it seems quite common. I don't know what you are reading, but, then again, I don't have a Ph.D. in the subject.

Hi Contrapunctus,

Thanks for your reply.  I do agree that the progression makes complete logical sense. I was just curious if there was a primary source for it.  Even if there is not, it doesn't mean that Bach did not intend it to be that way; I guess historians just like to have proof. After all, scholarship has experienced some grave errors in the past due to mere conjecture.

If I come across anything about this in my research I will be sure to post it.

- Andrew

P.S. And don't be silly about 'not having a PhD', it's only a title and nothing more

[pizno]

(He thinks Tureck's Bach is good. That tells me all I need to know.) 

Da Jake I assume you don't like Tureck?  I'm curious about that, having not heard much of her but I know her style is quite different from others.  Can you tell me what you don't like about her?

Piz

[pizno]

OH, now I've found the quote thingy.  Duh.

[da jake]

(He thinks Tureck's Bach is good. That tells me all I need to know.) 

Da Jake I assume you don't like Tureck?  I'm curious about that, having not heard much of her but I know her style is quite different from others.  Can you tell me what you don't like about her?

Piz

It's some of the most tedious Bach playing I've ever heard. Her Goldberg Variations infuriate me - she has no technique, no excitement, and worst of all, provides no real insight into the music. 16-year-old Konstantin Lifschitz's recording is better in every possible way. 

Gould is a plane above Tureck, yet Bernhard finds ways to deprecate his accomplishments.

[bernhard]

Gould is a plane above Tureck, yet Bernhard finds ways to deprecate his accomplishments.

She used to be my front door neighbour. Gould was not.

[da jake]

Heh, understandable. My teacher's esteemed teacher was close friends with Rudolph Serkin.  Despite not actually caring for Serkin's playing, my teacher has reminded me of his connection to the famous Serkin on a few occasions. 

[burstroman]

If one wanted to include "Art of the Fugue" as a keyboard work, where would it be placed? I'm asking this seriously.  Thanks.

[counterpoint]

I'm wondering, why smart Bernhard has placed the Goldberg Variations after WTC I & II 

I think, the difficulty of some of the Goldberg Variations is more like 2part Inventions, and WTC contains some of the most difficult pieces, Bach has ever written for the keyboard. Why is it, that everyone thinks, Goldberg Variations are difficult to play???

[bwv1080]

I'm wondering, why smart Bernhard has placed the Goldberg Variations after WTC I & II 

I think, the difficulty of some of the Goldberg Variations is more like 2part Inventions, and WTC contains some of the most difficult pieces, Bach has ever written for the keyboard. Why is it, that everyone thinks, Goldberg Variations are difficult to play???

The difficulty of the Goldberg Variations lies not merely in its technical demands, length and range, but also in the necessary analysis and understanding of the variations'  progression and structure.  As in all Bach, interpretation is of utmost importance, and I consider a performance of the Goldbergs as one cohesive piece the pinnacle of Bach playing. 

burstroman:
The difficulty of the Art of the Fugue is its dense, brilliant counterpoint.  This is the apex of Bach's fugue writing (and many consider it to be the apex of all fugue writing).  Additionally, Bach viewed this (unfinished) work as a means of communicating the culmination of his skill as composer.  The significance of the Art of the Fugue alone sets it apart from traditional repertoire.  As far as placing it in Bernhard's range, I would certainly tack it onto the end.

[moi_not_toi]

....
P.S. And don't be silly about 'not having a PhD', it's only a title and nothing more

well, only a few years of learning...
i think...
and a dissertation...

[bach-liszt]

The progression for me was Anna Magdalena, some preludes, fugues,inventions WTCI and WTCII and then, on to the organ to play some of his greatest works. 

[moi_not_toi]

I wish I could play organ. 

[einherjar]

Thanks for putting that list mate, that is really going to be usefull