So... what's so great about Mozart?

[steveie986]

The long-awaited sequel to the Bach thread.

No, I'm serious. I'm speaking with a straight face when I say that I find no emotional, physical, aesthetical, or sexual satisfaction in any of his piano pieces. Mozart's piano sonatas have neither the astounding fugal contrapuntalism of Bach nor the great emotional impact of Romantic stuff. I would really like to like Mozart's piano music.

I'm not doing this because I want to be iconoclastic nor because I find it "cool" to diss the Big Composers. I think a civil discussion about just what exactly is so incredible about these seminal composers is a good learning experience for everyone.

I'd genuinely appreciate it if someone can explain what I should be listening to.

(A footnote, however: I find Mozart's symphonies and the Requiem overwhelmingly beautiful, because of their fugal nature, but you find little of that in the piano concertoes or sonatas.)

[nicco]

Well I only worked through some of his sonatas with my teacher. Mozarts way of writing is so very tender, absolutely every note has its purpose, every chord has its own colour, the balance between RH\LH can be made so rich and dynamical, no notes are just to pedal out in "harmonys", its so very clear, phrasing can be so individually interpreted and so on and so forth. I never thought highly about mozart myself until my teacher showed me all these different things. Hell, we even discussed half a page from the K333 Sonata in 1 session that lasted for 1 hour! It really changed my way of thinking about Mozart.

Another thing that amazed me was when i went to a rehearsal for a mozart piano concert (Leif Ove Andsnes was performing the Piano concerto No.14 with our symphony orchestra) and it was just brilliant to see how he communicated with the orchestra and made them create the most beutiful colours, very different from what ive heard in f.ex the grieg or liszt concertos. Mozart just has his own style.

[gruffalo]

Well I only worked through some of his sonatas with my teacher. Mozarts way of writing is so very tender, absolutely every note has its purpose, every chord has its own colour, the balance between RH\LH can be made so rich and dynamical, no notes are just to pedal out in "harmonys", its so very clear, phrasing can be so individually interpreted and so on and so forth. I never thought highly about mozart myself until my teacher showed me all these different things. Hell, we even discussed half a page from the K333 Sonata in 1 session that lasted for 1 hour! It really changed my way of thinking about Mozart.

Another thing that amazed me was when i went to a rehearsal for a mozart piano concert (Leif Ove Andsnes was performing the Piano concerto No.14 with our symphony orchestra) and it was just brilliant to see how he communicated with the orchestra and made them create the most beutiful colours, very different from what ive heard in f.ex the grieg or liszt concertos. Mozart just has his own style.

you discussed the challenge of playing Mozart, but not the listening aspect. ive long awaited a discussion like this. However, i always had the impression that the Sonatas werent really serious.

[term]

Hmm whats great about mozart...i don't know either
I don't like his music because partially, i find it so cheerful that it's almost disgusting. I do like some of his famous works, like the symphony no 40 (though i find it boring after some time) and the Dies Irae...but in general i can't stand it.
My father told me it's because i don't have the musical understanding and the experience... I'm sure he's right to some extent, and my opinion could change sometime...I'll see 

[stevie]

a bit too mild

[nicco]

you discussed the challenge of playing Mozart, but not the listening aspect. ive long awaited a discussion like this. However, i always had the impression that the Sonatas werent really serious.

For me, the listening aspect changed rapidly after learning some of the things i mentioned. I immediately started to listen for neuances in the music, the dynamics, the tone, stuff like that. I never got much satisfaction before, but after thoroughly working through that sonata, things just started sounding different. Comparing different recordings of Mozart is also very interesting, my favourite being of no doubt Horowitz.

[kelly_kelly]

Hmm whats great about mozart...i don't know either
I don't like his music because partially, i find it so cheerful that it's almost disgusting. I do like some of his famous works, like the symphony no 40 (though i find it boring after some time) and the Dies Irae...but in general i can't stand it.
My father told me it's because i don't have the musical understanding and the experience... I'm sure he's right to some extent, and my opinion could change sometime...I'll see 

Although I generally enjoy Mozart, I do sometimes find his music too cheerful. However, I love his work in minor keys. Try the Sonata in C Minor (K. 457).

[prometheus]

I had a set of Mozart Piano Concerto's but I never liked Mozart. He just isn't my composer. I like music like Bach, Liszt, Reger, Busoni, Sorabji and jazz like Coltrane, Parker and carnatic indian classical music. So Mozart was very far removed from the center of my musical interest.

So at a point when my interest in music had reached a low point and I was busy with my 'novels', math, chess and ancient history I just turned on some of those Mozart Piano Concerto's. At that point I quite enjoyed some of it. I found that quite ironic. I guess his music is shallow genius, something that seems as an oxymoron to me.

So Mozart is too childlike and playful to me so I had to listen to it when my approach to music was more playful also.

[Mozartian]

I've come to the conclusion that the reason why Mozart is underappreciated in this era is simply because joy and happiness is no longer in vogue.

To my ear, Mozart's music soars on the wings of a songbird, happy and free from care. It is very emotional for me in the sense that it fills me with joy, and peace. An escape from the cares and troubles of the world. Joy of living, happiness in life.

These are true emotions, just as vividly real as sadness. And in my opinion, more beautiful.

[mcgillcomposer]

I've come to the conclusion that the reason why Mozart is underappreciated in this era is simply because joy and happiness is no longer in vogue.

To my ear, Mozart's music soars on the wings of a songbird, happy and free from care. It is very emotional for me in the sense that it fills me with joy, and peace. An escape from the cares and troubles of the world. Joy of living, happiness in life.

These are true emotions, just as vividly real as sadness. And in my opinion, more beautiful.

Nice point A teacher of mine always used to say "Why is modern music often so depressing?"

[ce nedra]

I find Mozart's music very very very sad... There is an underlying deeper hurt and frustration than any obvious minor key "sad" piece. His music weeps. But it is not obvious which is why it is all to often overlooked. I find his music more saddeningly beautiful than any other. Yet it is also joyous. You cant just listen to the notes and expect to hear what is heard in Beethoven or Chopin.. You will become bored. You have to listen to his soul... the notes just follow. Agree with me, dont, whatever. Its what I feel.

[mcgillcomposer]

Oh, and for those who are curious as to what features make his music incredible, well here is a short list (by no means complete):

- The way in which he uses harmony (modulation particularly) is incredibly original and quite ingenious. His harmony is significantly chromatic, even more so than many composers who followed him (i.e. Beethoven). Example: the famous Requiem

- The musical and dramatic coherence of his operas...if you've never written one (or tried to), I don't think you understand how difficult it is.  Writing an opera truly is the pinnacle of compositional achievement. Mozart had an incredible ear for text, if I may say that. He was always immediately able to determine what parts of a libretto would or would not work...and often offered suggestions to make them work.

- Prolific...so what? Prolific and genius...this is something.  He composed an incredible amount of works in such a short period of time, each of which is perfect...there is nothing anyone would ever want to change.

- Mastery of polyphonic writing...just look at the final movement of the Jupiter symphony...the entire plan becomes increasingly contrapuntal is it approaches the end, and culminates in a remarkable fugue.

Anyway, hopefully this will give you something to think about.  Also, I would like to add one more thing.  It seems that the problem with understanding Mozart's genius may be that many people are not familiar with enough of his works.  As pianists, we often tend to favour piano music and often neglect other mediums of musical expression  Only once you have experienced a more eclectic selection of Mozart's music should you make up your mind about his genius.

All the best.

- Andrew

[pianalex]

I agree that there is huge aching sadness in Mozart, miraculously co-existing with the joy. as if  the impossibility of such pure radiance were it's own undoing.  But it's not merely self-pitying or nostalgic, just a kind of evident truth, presented with exquisite and subtle irony.  Perhaps not evident to all to judge from other posts (and that's not intended judgementally) - could it reflect differing outlooks on the world? 
Admittedly it is not best represented in the sonatas,  but the concertos, operas, gminor quintet...himmel!!

[ted]

I have tried hard over the years to understand what people hear in Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn and any other classicists properly so called. Bach, on the other hand, as I said in the other thread, for some reason wrote sounds which I rather enjoy. I haven't the slightest idea why this is so. The fault, if fault it is, resides with me. It must, because so many people whose opinions I respect really like Mozart and the others. It isn't that I actively dislike their music, it's more a case of everything being a vague, neutral sound which goes in one ear and out the other. I have been through phases wherein I bought books by Tovey and others and studied them carefully while listening to all the sonatas and so on. I bought many recordings of classical music which I now rarely listen to.

I had the same problem when I rashly took a series of composition lessons from a very prominent musician and composer here. When push came to shove it was all pointless because I really do enjoy five minutes of my own "wrong" music, improvisation perhaps, more than hours of "right" classical music.  I cannot go very far from that position; it seems to be logical and emotional bedrock for me. The music just doesn't fit my sort of brain.

[alwaystheangel]

I like it!!! So a serial thread.  I feel so special and smart!  
Now, Mozart is something I can actually understand.
I once heard that Mozart's music is like a person gently knocking on the gates to heaven while Beethoven just barges right on in.  I like that idea.  Mozart was very young when he died and very young when he wrote his music so I think that youth is reflected in his music as Immaturity and he was, in reality, immature with an affinity for the sounds of bodily functions.  What I like about Mozart is the fact that on the surface, his music appears simplistic and easy, but, when you actually start to play it the realization comes over you that his music is actually devilishly hard compared to firt appearances,  the dynamics, the pedalling, god, the pedalling, and even the notes can be so challenging, but I find him to have a great reward in the satisfaction of completing and playing one of his pieces well.


Well, those are my thoughts
Cheers,
Always

P.S. People are far more friendly in this thread, much more civilized, just wait 'till when we put up a Sorabji one

[prometheus]

That's because the critics of Bach and Mozart are generally more civilised.

It seems Sorabji 'violates' some people's definition of music or something that gets them so worked up.

[Bob]

It might be that people are listening to something else that Mozart doesn't emphasize.

Not to say Mozart isn't emotional, but it could be the phrase surprise and formal structure that makes him a genius than just emotion.  Things other than feelings and the surface sound.

[lilypiano]

I have tried hard over the years to understand what people hear in Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn and any other classicists properly so called.
I had the same problem when I rashly took a series of composition lessons from a very prominent musician and composer here. When push came to shove it was all pointless because I really do enjoy five minutes of my own "wrong" music, improvisation perhaps, more than hours of "right" classical music.  I cannot go very far from that position; it seems to be logical and emotional bedrock for me. The music just doesn't fit my sort of brain.

I wasn't that fond of opera until I took a medieval to 17th century music history class. The early opera I had to listen to in there sounded so much more interesting than anything else.  I sort of liked some of the madrigals and other later stuff, but not the polyphony or organum.  Beethoven, on the other hand sounds absolutely wild compared to older music.  It's really wonderful.  Classical music is white hot. 

[alejo_90]

I'm sick of these "What's so great about ******?" threads.

It's a matter of taste !! For example, you can dislike Beethoven... and then you start a "So... What's so great about Beethoven" thread !!! It's kinda insulting for the ones who actually like Beethoven don't you think?!! It's like when someone who dislikes classical music asks you "What's so great about classical music?".
You just like it or not, you don't have to judge it and say to others you find it "cold", "too cheerful" or "disgusting !!" (That one really pissed me off !!).
Every person has different tastes !!

Alex

[steveie986]

I'm sick of these "What's so great about ******?" threads.

It's a matter of taste !! For example, you can dislike Beethoven... and then you start a "So... What's so great about Beethoven" thread !!! It's kinda insulting for the ones who actually like Beethoven don't you think?!! It's like when someone who dislikes classical music asks you "What's so great about classical music?".
You just like it or not, you don't have to judge it and say to others you find it "cold", "too cheerful" or "disgusting !!" (That one really pissed me off !!).
Every person has different tastes !!

Alex

I'd like to thoughtfully disagree. I started this "what's so great" thread not because I wish to call into question the value of Mozart, but because I want to learn from other music lovers what exactly  they find awesome in a kind of music I need help in appreciating. So, in this sense, it is not at all insulting for people who like this kind of music, because I'm asking to learn from them, not question their tastes.

Your claim that "everyone has different tastes" is partially true, but is also rather shallow. If we don't call into question, test, and always strive to expand our tastes we wouldn't discover anything new to love in music. Too often, "each person has his own personal tastes" is used as a lazy excuse to not give new, unfamiliar, uncomfortable music a chance.

Further, your claim "you just like it or not" is simply untrue and a shallow way of approaching music, or art in general. If all artistic judgment were based on such trivialized first-impression whims, then art would be awfully simplistic and bland, don't you think? If someone asked you "what's so great about this classical music that you seem to love so much?" I hope you aren't going to respond, "Fluck off, stop insulting this holy classical music. You either like it or not." Why don't you actually explain what's so great about classical music? Are you (a General You) eloquent enough to undertake such a task?

Finally, if you (a General You, again) cannot properly justify or verbalize your love for a particular music when it is called into question, you must question either your communication skills or your love for the music itself.

Hope this clarifies the issue.

 

Love you very much, as always.

[steveie986]

I like it!!! So a serial thread.  I feel so special and smart!  

Emulation is the highest praise.

 

Love you always beaucoup.

[term]

It's a matter of taste !! For example, you can dislike Beethoven... and then you start a "So... What's so great about Beethoven" thread !!! It's kinda insulting for the ones who actually like Beethoven don't you think?!!

No
If every piece of music is a matter of taste and you reject to talk about it, the forum can be closed

I'm sorry if i "insulted" someone when saying i find some of mozart's music disgusting, its just my opinion, nobody has to agree. I'm also aware of the possibility that i _might_ not understand mozart yet, as i pointed out above.
But since musical taste also depends on one's character...that's how i feel about it, can't change it.

It's like when someone who dislikes classical music asks you "What's so great about classical music?".

I have no problem with that, why do you? It's a legitimate question.

[ted]

I think these threads are very positive provided we all make the effort to be objective and open about precisely why we like or dislike certain music. Lilypiano, for instance has stated that for her, classical music and Beethoven in particular, is "white hot". I would dearly like Beethoven to be "white hot" for me too; I feel I am missing out on something. But despite forty odd years of trying, I fear it never will be. It isn't that I am not open to perceptive change, on the contrary, with many other types of music I have changed my understanding, and have gained much enjoyment in the process.

Therefore I do not consider these threads a waste of time at all, because they force us to think about the underlying basis of our musical response. The only requirement is that we forget about the FACT that at present we like or dislike something - any fool can expound on that - and seriously try to explain WHY we think the way we do. The truth of the matter probably has the potential to surprise us.

[alejo_90]

Okay ! Okay ! you win ! I'm sorry if I sounded so agressive.

Term, it's okay if you don't like Mozart, but you don't have to use adjectives like "disgusting" or "too cheerful" to justify your dislike.
That was my point when I said "You just like it or not".

Anyways, I apologize to all of you for being so stubborn.

[alwaystheangel]

I definately think that theses are a great way to discuss and  debate about the different qualities of different composers. (I might be a little biased thought )

Music is there to make us think and dicuss and take something away from it, so in a way, even if you don't enjoy a certain composer's work you are still getting something out of it even if it is dislike.  Futhermore, discussions can open our minds to so many different points of view and opinions that we made not have heard before, I haven't been a member for long, but I've learned some much already, whether it's the uslessness of finger exercises or that there's a piece of music out there that takes 8 hours to play.  A global community like this is an incredible thing.  I'm gald I found it. 

Mozart Rocks, and Bach's not so bad!
Cheers,
Always

EDIT:  I just went out into the main repetoire page, holy sh*t!  I can see why people may be annoyed,  One a week of theses maybe, but like twenty at one time, good grief!

[steveie986]

You started it! Be proud.

 

[alwaystheangel]

 
I'm vaguely horrified, actually.