Best Make of Piano

[elevateme]

ok... favourite piano to play on & why?
if ive missed any crucial ones out tell me

[gfiore]

 You forgot Blüthner, Fazioli, Grotrian, Mason & Hamlin,  Seiler, Steingraeber, August Förster, Estonia, and Petrof.
 Berger and Boston should'nt even be on your list if this poll is about voting for top pianos.

[andyd]

I guess you missed a few. 
I would have voted for Stuart & Sons if you'd named them.  Probably followed by Bluthner or Steinway.

Andy

[elevateme]

oops sorry! our school has two august forster grands, i cant believe i forgot those

[allthumbs]

How about...

Schimmel
Charles Walter
Knabe
Estonia
Baldwin
Shigeru Kawai
Heintzman
Pleyel
Chickering
Feurich

...to name a few

[elevateme]

well, kawais actualy already on there, but who the hell would choose any of the rest?

[elevateme]

and so is estonia!! god!!

[qwerty quaver]

spam

[elevateme]

"Sometimes a Steinway plays better than the pianist, and it is then a marvelous surprise."
Martha Argerich

"Steinway is the only piano on which the pianist can do everything he wants. And everything he dreams."
Vladimir Ashkenazy

"When one plays a Steinway, there is a warmth and nobility in the sound that is unequalled by any other instrument."
Emanuel Ax

"The Steinway piano is such an incomparable instrument. Due to its virtues, I am able to express all my musical feelings."
Daniel Barenboim

"I want to make music. That means I prefer the Steinway piano."
Alfred Brendel

"The Steinway piano - with its beauty and power - is the perfect medium for expressing the performer's art, drama and poetry."
Van Cliburn

"I wish to thank Steinway for its wonderful pianos which I've been privileged to play in all my concerts. There is no piano like it in the world."
Evgeny Kissin

"I choose to play the Steinway because of its wonderful clarity, tonal diversity and the wide dynamic range that it enables me to achieve."
Radu Lupu

"The more I hear its nuances of sounds, the more I realize the wealth of colors only a Steinway piano can produce."
Murray Perahia

"Steinway grand pianos are the best in the world."
Maurizio Pollini

"My friendship with the Steinway piano is one of the most important and beautiful things in my life."
Krystian Zimerman

[hiline]

Wow, Steinway is truly the best advertiser in the world. 

[alejo_90]

Hey elevateme ! You got those quotes from the Steinway homepage didn't you?
Indeed, Steinway is one of the best Pianos around.

[tompilk]

for me it was between steinway and bosendorfer - steinway won, just because they are so widely used by so many concert pianists...
Tom

[tw0k1ngs]

for me it was between steinway and bosendorfer - steinway won, just because they are so widely used by so many concert pianists...
Tom

Not to be a jerk, but you spelled Rachmaninoff wrong in your profile. It's "off", not "ov"

[qwerty quaver]

spam

[lilypiano]

I like the Steinways.
\ My parents have a Knabe upright at home, and it's the nicest sounding upright I've ever played.  It sounds better than some grand pianos.

[Floristan]

For me Bosendorfer is first, Steinway second.  They are very different instruments and my preference would be to have one of each!  But if I HAD to choose, for my personal taste and because I don't play in big concert halls, I'd choose Bosendorfer with its incredibly even tone throughout the entire range and for the clarity of that tone.

Steinways, as a rule, produce a more complex tone that is very different in the bass than the treble -- more orchestral, if you will, which I believe was the sound Steinway was striving for.  Also, I think Steinways project better in a big hall, so in that environment they are very desirable.  In smaller halls and especially for chamber music where blending is everything, I prefer the Bosendorfer.

[brahmsian]

Petrof. I love the tone.

[pianoperfmajor]

Petrof. I love the tone.

yeah i'd have to agree.  i'd also go with the faz.

[jlh]

Not to be a jerk, but you spelled Rachmaninoff wrong in your profile. It's "off", not "ov"

Well, if we want to get really technical about the spelling, it is actually "Сергей Васильевич Рахманинов".

[alejo_90]

Well, if we want to get really technical about the spelling, it is actually "Сергей Васильевич Рахманинов".

XD !!!!! 

[gyzzzmo]

I voted for yamaha because they create very nice pianos for a very decent price range.
Wich makes a good alot more affortable for the common piano player.

[yamaha2006]

Yep right,

Yamaha has the best price for good quality!
However the sound is not so great when you plays several notes ( polyphony)...

[hiline]

I second both gyzzzmo and yamaha2006.

[yamaha2006]

Construction type is quite important since one does not buy a piano just for a few years but for 30,40 years even the entire life….
Thus a well-manufactured piano appears to last longer than other ones…Who can say that a Fazioli will last more than 100 years?? We cannot know that yet !
But we do know that a Bösendorfer, Bechstein or Steinway can last for more than 100 years and that’s why they are great !

Besides the sound of a good Yamaha (SU series) might be the same as a Bechstein or Bluthner (to be checked) for the first 5 years but what about after 5 years?

I do believe that Great piano brands (and that’s why they are expensive) can last a very long time keeping the same sound ( or almost equal) and same action ( if well-tuned and voiced properly), am I right?

[Axtremus]

Besides the sound of a good Yamaha (SU series) might be the same as a Bechstein or Bluthner (to be checked) for the first 5 years but what about after 5 years?

I do believe that Great piano brands (and that’s why they are expensive) can last a very long time keeping the same sound ( or almost equal) and same action ( if well-tuned and voiced properly), am I right?

You may be right, but I've not seen credible longitudinal studies of pianos under controlled environments to verify that hypothesis.

It may indeed be true that a 30,000 Euro piano may "sound better" than a 10,000 Euro piano after 10 years, but how do you know that this is strictly due to the "construction quality" of the piano? May be it is because the 30,000 Euro piano get better maintenance services because the buyer who can afford 30,000 Euro piano can also afford to better maintain the piano. May be it is because the 10,000 Euro piano was used more than the 30,000 Euro piano. There so many variables that can influence the pianos over a span of 10 years. (There's a school of thought that says a well-maintained "average" piano will perform better than a poorly maintained "premium" piano over the years.)

I quite agree with you that "long term track record" is important. I just wish there're more controlled logitudinal studies of this issue.

[hiline]

I wonder, what is a piano 's stability affected by?
Yamaha pianos are cheap just because they are produced by a great number, right ?

[gfiore]

 Tuning and action stability are greatly affected by the piano being subjected to severe changes in relative humidity.  A performs at it's best in an environment with controlled humidity. The ideal relative humidity level for a piano is between 40%-50% relative humidity.

[hiline]

Then why don't Yamaha pianos age well?

[gfiore]

 Quality of materials used in their manfacture.

[hiline]

If you don't mind, do you know what materials Steinway and Yamaha use?

[Waldszenen]

If you don't mind, do you know what materials Steinway and Yamaha use?

Timber, iron, steel, copper, felt...


I've always thought Hamburg Steinways are the very best, but after playing a brand new Stuart & Sons, I'm beginning to think that Steinway will have some serious competition, but only if Stuart grows and becomes a massive company. At the moment they only produce their (extremely good) pianos by demand.

Apparently though, everyone who's played a Fazioli automatically prefers them to any other piano (and not to mention they're like nearly double the cost of a Steinway).

[hiline]

Timber, iron, steel, copper, felt...

OK, so what are the differences between the materials that different factories use?

[Axtremus]

Apparently though, everyone who's played a Fazioli automatically prefers them to any other piano (and not to mention they're like nearly double the cost of a Steinway).

Not every one. I like Fazioli F-228 more than, say, the Steinway B I like best. Yet if I compare pianos of the same size, I'd have to compare Steinway B to Fazioli F-212, and among these two 7' models, I like Steinway B more than Fazioli F-212. Having played a rebuilt Hamburg Steinway D and a Fazioli F-278 side by side, I came out preferring the rebuilt Hamburg D to the Fazioli F-278 -- and there were at least half a dozen more people who shared that preference at the time. Heck, no need to go for any exotic brand name... I've encountered a 7'6" Yamaha C7 that I like more than every 7' and smaller Fazioli I've played to date. I played said C7 in the same room as those other Faziolis, and I could buy 2 or 3 C7's for the price of one F-212.

Comparing pianos of the same sizes, Fazioli pianos do not cost "twice" as much as Steinway pianos. Faziolis are a fraction (no more than 1/3) more expensive than Steinways in the US, but Faziolis are cheaper than Steinways in Europe.

[gfiore]

 The more expensive pianos like Fazioli use hand selected, and better grade raw materials in the construction of their pianos. These pianos use more hand labor than the mass produced pianos, and more attention is paid to the refinement of details in th finishing steps of their manufacture

[yamaha2006]

In Europe, I can say that Fazioli is not as expensive as Steinway...(for same size of course) ..
Steinway (Hamburg) still remains the best reference and they are the finest pianos in Concert halls. They also are made by hand (80 %) and I think Fazioli too (since they do use Laser to cut the wood, this is a new technology , isn't it, not an old one?) ...

It needs 3 years to build a Concert D (Hamburg) !!! And when someone wants to buy a Steinway Grand, he is given the opportunity to visit and choose his piano in the factory itself (yes a travel to Hamburg is paid !!! ) !

I think Fazioli might become like Bösendorfer in 150 years...if they still provide good pianos... and if they are not so pretentious...Steinway wants to build a few pianos but at a reasonable level of production ( 3000 a year I think or something like that) in order to build a famous brand, recognized by every professional or amateur.

Fazioli is aiming only the Rich people building Grands ( not even an upright) and they sell their piano to the aristrocracy mainly !

steinway remains expensive but if you become an international player, they offer you your own steinway, that's not bad I think...It may help some "poor" pianists to start a career...

You say  :
These pianos use more hand labor than the mass produced pianos, and more attention is paid to the refinement of details in th finishing steps of their manufacture

But I agree !!! Yamaha is a mass producing piano offering good quality for cheap price !!!
However the quality is below the great brands : Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Steinway and even Fazioli!

[gfiore]

 Yamaha, where do you get your info? Steinway takes 10 months, not three years  to build a piano. Steinway does not give an artist on their artist roster a piano, they do however offer a disount on the price to the artist. No lasers are used to cut wood, only traditional machinery is used for sawing and planing of wood,   however Steinway NY does use a CNC router to fit soundboards to the inner and outer rim of their grands.
 Fazioli does'nt just sell pianos to the rich. Their largest market is Germany, where they have been selling pianos to many of the leading schools of music, and conservatories. The same applies to their sales in the USA.

[yamaha2006]

From steinway:
- 10 months to build, 3 years from the beginning of cutting the woods to the finalization...
- some artists were given theirs pianos (a few people though)
-  all other info too

About Fazioli, they use the finest new technologies which are modern of course...but i am not against that, i am for a good evolution of Piano using concise and sharp measurements !!!

I just think it's better if every conservatoire owns a grand from each brand and same size. Then we can compare really the quality !

but Fazili might become a reat name but not now, it's too new..There are so many good brands such as Grotrian, Forster or Mason and Hamlin....

Proofs will be made with time, so don't be so enthusiastic with Fazioli, whih is very good for now, but could they hold the same quality after 50 years?

Great brands are famous since they provide "eternal" instrument if well-cared !!! Longevity is as important as quality on the day you buy the piano....Anyone (even a conservatoire) will not spend money on buying a piano each "10-year-period.... !!

[gfiore]

 Yamaha, Fazioli is  a proven piano used by many concert artists on the stage, and for their personal piano in their homes. Their construction mehtods are still carried out in a traditional manner, and will hold up just as well as any other manufacturers piano using the same high quality materials. Their scale designs do benefit from the lastest in computer CAD design in their R&D research, just as do quite a few other piano manufaturers.  I service quite a few of differing ages, and they are very well designed,well built pianos, so I don't need the proof of time to know how they will age.  Stuart & Sons is the newest kid on the block. Would you question their design, materials, and integrety?

 Conservatories won't buy a new piano every ten years. Are you sure about that? I know of many that do.

[yamaha2006]

I know many artists use them at their stage...
The titanic was also proved to be invincible...!

But just let the time decides whether or not these are pianos are so great...Well-build is only matter of time !

Fazioli is excellent , indeed, but not the best one and the best-apporved in today's world !
That's a fact..

Yes like Fazioli, Stuart is copying Great german brands just to prove that they can do the same as european...Well it's good for the competition but it's like Forumla one :
For years Ferrari was the best, and now Renault is becoming the best ( i am not talking about former williams Renault)....because with time and attention they deserve to be the best !
It was the same with Ferrari which was very bad before Schumacher's ages...

Ok Fazioli seems to be a modern ferrari but i'd rather like and trust a BMW Serie 7 or mercedes class S which give full satisfaction for the best used and equiped car in the world (compare to the price you buy them).

[gfiore]

 Stuart, like Fazioli, is'nt copying any German pianos. They utilize their own R&D design, construction methods, and patents. Time has told Yamaha. You only need to see how a concert grand in artist service survives the circuit, and many Fazioli's throughout the world have done this with flying colors.
 How is it a fact that is not approved? Would Marc-Andre hamelin, Angela Hewitt, Nikolai Demidenko, Louis Lortie, Piers Lane, Herbie Hancock, and Vladimir Ashkenazy not approve. They having been performing quite a few concerts on Fazioli concert grands in recent years. Would they risk their reputations on a lesser instrument? Please refrain from making assumptions. Are you a concert piano technician? Have you been to the factories of these manufacturers?

[yamaha2006]

from pianos techs :

only for certain pieces can be played on Faziolis...not all !
The concertists are still excited to play on new pianos.But Fazioli are very hard to master properly...

From my thoughts:
These concertists play just the works they know Fazioli could handle...But on German pianos, we  can play everything !!!

But they're are beautiful , I admit that !

[gfiore]

 That's crap. Any concert pianist can adapt to any instrument in a few minutes time.  Fazioli pianos have a very wide dynamic palette, and can handle all styles of music, especially the Concerto repetoire.

[Waldszenen]

Although certain piano tones are better suited to different types of music, it's not an extremity - you can play any music on a Fazioli and it will sound beautiful.

[hiline]

The more expensive pianos like Fazioli use hand selected, and better grade raw materials in the construction of their pianos. These pianos use more hand labor than the mass produced pianos, and more attention is paid to the refinement of details in th finishing steps of their manufacture

That's why I asked about the materials.  What specific materials does each brand use for their pianos? And do they use the same materials for all of their products?
Another question, why more hand labor using is better?
BTW, does anyone have a Fazioli sound sample, please?

[yamaha2006]

* = good
** = very good
*** excellent


- * : BALTIKA - BLESSING - CALISIA - CARAIMAN - CHAVANNE - CHERNY -
CHOISEUL - DAEWOO - DANIEL - EISENBERG - EXCELLENCE - FUCHS & MOHR - FRITZ
DOBBER - GEYER - HANLET . - HERRMANN - HOHNER - HOLSTEIN - HSINGAI - HUPFELD -
HYUNDAI - IRMBACH - KLINGMAN - LEGNICA - LINDHOLM - LESAGE - MAEARI -
NIENDORF - NIER - NOCTURNO - PEARL RIVER - PETROF - RIEGER KLOSS - RONISCH -
ROSENBERG - ROSSLER - ROYALE - SAMICK - SCHOLZE - SOJIN - STEINBACH -
STEINMANN - TCHAIKA - WALDHEIM - WEBER - WEINBACH - YOUNG CHANG -
ZIMMERMANN

- ** : APOLLO - ARCANA - ATLAS - BACHMANN - BALDWIN - BARRATT &
ROBINSON - BLUTHNER - BORD - BRINSMEAD - BROADWOOD - BROTHER - BURGER
JACOBI - CHALLEN - CHAPPELL - CHICKERING - DIETMAN - ERARD - EUTERPE - ETERNA -
FAZER - FEURICH - FORSTER - FURSTEIN - GAVEAU - GOMBAULT - GORS & KALMAN -
GRAND - GROTRIAN STEINWEG - GUNTHER - HELLAS - HOFFMANN - IBACH - KAWAI -
KEMBLE - KLEIN - KLUG & SPERL - KNABE - KNIGHT - KOHLER & CAMPBELL - KRAUSS -
LOWREY - MANTHEY - MARSHALL & ROSE - MAY - MOORE & MOORE - NORDISKA -
PFEIFFER - PIANO DE FRANCE - PLEYEL - RAMEAU - RIPPEN - SABEL - SASSMANN -
SAUTER - SCHIEDMAYER - SCHIMMEL - SCHULZE & POLLMAN - SEILER - SILBERMAN -
SILVER - SOLTON - STEINGRAEBER - STORY & CLARCK - THURMER - TOKAI - TOYO -
WEISS - WELMAR - WILLIS - WURLITZER - YAMAHA - ZEITTER & WINKELMAN- FAZIOLI

- *** : BECHSTEIN - BOSENDORFER  - STEINWAY & SON - ( FAZIOLI)

[gfiore]

 The manufacture of a piano uses many different species of wood, felt, buckskin, and other raw materials. What sets the more expensive pianos apart from the mass produced pianos, is the quality of the woods and materials used, how they are selected, cured, and processed. A manufacturer like Bösendorfer, Steinway. etc,  will construct all their pianos using the same materials for all models.
 The manufacturers of very expensive pianos produced in small numbers, rely on more hand labor in their pianos construction processes. Whereas, the manufacuters of mass produced pianos, rely on more machinery in their manufacturing processes.

[hiline]

Thanks for answering, but doesn't machinery production guarantee more precision?

[gfiore]

 Machinery is only as good as the human that operates it. Pianos like Steinway, Bechstein, Grotrian,etc, combine machinery with a lot of painstaking hand labor to produce pianos of exceptional quality. This is not the same as the  cookie-cutter pianos rolling off the assembly line like those of the mass producers, who make up to 70,000 pianos per year. The manufactuers of high end pianos are only making between 300-500 pianos per year. And the bottom line is, you get what you pay for. It's not that Yamaha, or any of the other Asian pianos are of poor quality, they make a good quality product at affordable price points.

[Waldszenen]

It's not that Yamaha, or any of the other Asian pianos are of poor quality

But an alarmingly high number of them are. It's amazing how the more an instrument is machine-made, the more like a machine it sounds.

[gyzzzmo]

As long as the manufacturer (Yamaha for example) has good enough quality controll, there shouldnt be a problem.