Is stretching your hands bad?

[tw0k1ngs]

I heard someone say that stretching your hands are bad for the joints, and wither Schumann or Schubert developed a problem from doing it constantly.

I am 6'5, with a size 15-16 shoe, so you can imagine how big my hands are, and can reach about a 12th (left hand, 11th right). So if I stretch them, I could easily eventually get around a 13th or 14th, maybe even 2 octaves, but I don't want to have any damage. Any thoughts on this?

[prometheus]

Stress and tension in your hands is bad. Therefore stretching can be bad.

But I don't understand. If you have such huge hands then why do you want to stretch them even further?

[pianistimo]

yes.  that was in my head, too.  i thought the poster had small hands. 

what i think is interesting is that you can stretch all your fingers out (over a table) and then see where they naturally revert to with the pads of your fingers on the table.  that is probably your comfortable reach (thumb to pinky).  and if you move your forearm straight back (towards body), your hand has a natural position.  most of the time i try to play in the 'natural unstretched position' even with stretches (by zipping - moving the hand really fast from here to there).  you, on the other hand - can probably comfortably hit notes without even trying.

i think the idea of relaxed playing is most evident with pianists that choose good repertoire for themselves and don't try to play things that overuse their hands in a bad way - AND, that allow them to putz around in a very natural hand position most of the time, with occasional stretches, and then alternate movements (sort of accordian-like) that bring the fingers together.  obviously, what you DON't want is keeping your hand all stiff for long periods of time.  even with large chords, you can learn to keep telling yourself to relax and play them in a more relaxed way.   

[steve jones]

I heard someone say that stretching your hands are bad for the joints, and wither Schumann or Schubert developed a problem from doing it constantly.

I am 6'5, with a size 15-16 shoe, so you can imagine how big my hands are, and can reach about a 12th (left hand, 11th right). So if I stretch them, I could easily eventually get around a 13th or 14th, maybe even 2 octaves, but I don't want to have any damage. Any thoughts on this?

Without wishing to sound cynical, I find it hard to believe that someone with a 12th reach is interested in stretching their hand further while in the knowledge that it can result in severe injury.

But lets just assume for a moment that this is the case...

Its my opinion that stretching without the aid of outside forces is alright in moderation. Iv done this myself on the keyboard - practicing runs of tenth intervals as quickly as I can, pushing my hand gently against the edge of the keys to form a split between 1-5.

Iv suffered no pain and certainly no injuries, and this has helped me to reach my maximum practical stretches with far greater ease.


Prometheus,

Lets not confuse tension during a stretching exercise and tension while playing. If someone could increase the flexibility of the muscles in the hand, wrist and arm, then its likely that they could play in extended positions with LESS tension.

But as we have both already mentioned, IF you have a 12th reach already then why are you even considering taking the risk? Have you ever found a chord that you've not been able to play?

SJ

[tw0k1ngs]

Without wishing to sound cynical, I find it hard to believe that someone with a 12th reach is interested in stretching their hand further while in the knowledge that it can result in severe injury.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but the time I heard that was from a piano dealer, so I was unsure of the credibility. I WANT to reach further, because there are some chords I feel I could reach without arpeggiating if I just stretched by hands outwards a little.

I also heard that chopin slept with corks between his fingers as a child, and we all know his hands were PERFECTLY fine .

[mike_lang]

C'mon man, don't be greedy.  Most of us get by on a 10th.

Michael

[kelly_kelly]

I HAVE to stretch- otherwise I wouldn't be able to play anything.

[steve jones]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but the time I heard that was from a piano dealer, so I was unsure of the credibility. I WANT to reach further, because there are some chords I feel I could reach without arpeggiating if I just stretched by hands outwards a little.

I also heard that chopin slept with corks between his fingers as a child, and we all know his hands were PERFECTLY fine .

Yeah, I heard about that too. Not sure if its true, or if it would be effective. From what I know, there is only so long that benefits can be gained by remaining in the current maximum range of motion, ie, the max stretch. It would be like a Ballet dancer going to sleep in a side split each night - pretty pointless, as five minutes of isometric stretching would do far more good (not suggesting that for the hands mind!).

But again, Im still curious to know how you think achieving a reach beyond the 12th is going to benefit you? I dont think Iv ever seen a chord larger than a 12th, and certainly not one thats intended to be played solid. If you hands are that large, Id be looking for ways to make them smaller if anything!

Btw, does anyone know if isometric stretching is even safe for the hands? If it were, then that would be a great way to maximize the reach. Im just not certain that the ligaments (or bones for that matter) would handle it.

SJ

[bearzinthehood]

I believe your maximum practical stretch has as much to do with the strength of the muscles in your hand as it does with the actual physical flexibility.

[steve jones]

Absolutely. If Im correct, the wrist plays a part too. Its the muscles in the palm that need to be stretched, along with the training on the relavent muscles in the arm. Not sure the precise anatomy of this.

Another reason why active and dynamic stretches are good for this purpose. Practicing difficult intervals while trying to remain relaxed will help loads. Just be careful not to over train, as again, Im not sure what the injure profile would be like for a serious training regime.

I can say with some certainly though, that this is by far the safest route to gaining maximal range of motion when compared to other methods. Forcing the figures apart using apparatus, balistic stretching etc would probably lead to catastrophy.

SJ

[prometheus]

Lets not confuse tension during a stretching exercise and tension while playing. If someone could increase the flexibility of the muscles in the hand, wrist and arm, then its likely that they could play in extended positions with LESS tension.

As far as I know this has nothing to do with stretchning muscles but with gaining more control. More control over the thousands of muscle fibers in your hands.

Stretching helps with warming up but it will not make you a better pianist. I also think that stretching muscles plays a very small part in getting more flexible hands. But I am not sure about this.

But the diference is there, yes, and I did not put emphasis on it.

[steve jones]

This kind of exercise is comparible to the kind of flexibility training performed by martial artists and gymnasts. Its called active static and active dynamic flexibility. This is just like a martial artist having the ability to perform a high kick, or to hold the leg in the air for extended periods of time. Its requires both flexibility of some muscles (those that tense and resist the motion) and strength in others (those that have to power the motion). Im no expert of this, but have read up on the subject.

In the case of the hand, and playing wide chords, there seems to be several criteria:

- Ability to reach maximum stretch in a short period of time (ie, the time it takes to hit a chord)

- Ability to hold this position for the required duration with no assistence from outside forces

- Ability to remain relaxed

All of these criteria would benefit from the right strength and flexibility training imo. The only question remains, whether it is safe to perform such exercises on the hand? This Im not sure. If ligaments are being stretched rather than muscles, then it will result in major problems (as Schubert discovered!).

However, such problems usually arise from isometric exercises, and this is not what we're talking about. I believe that relaxed static stretches combined with dynamic exercises would help a great deal.

Ofcourse, one has to be realistic. If a chord is out of reach, then it is out of reach! In this case, it might be more wise to spend this time developing the ability to arpegiate the chord instead.

As far as tw0k1ngs is concerned, Im really not sure what to recommend. Maybe practicing single hand scales in 11ths and 12ths, while trying to keep the hand relaxed (and stopping as soon as tension sets in). Maybe playing a hard chord and holding it until the muscles completely relax. Things like this are the safest and should help.

Id be interested to know whether you can form a 180 split between 1-5? If so, then its really the opposing muscles that need to be trained so that they are strong enough to reach this range of motion quickly and effortlessly.

SJ