I am ignorant. I have never heard of this Sorabji.

[mikethibodeau]

I looked him up and I know a bit about him now. Can anyone refer me to some of his best work?

[prometheus]

Try Toccata No.1 by Powell.

It is a work made out of baroque forms taken to a complexity not often seen.

The melodies that dominate the work, as a melody does in most baroque forms, are made out of all 12 notes. Well, not always. The point is that they never belong to one key. The music does use constant harmonies but a key is never really established. So the music is not atonal. There are no tone rows or twelve tone techniques. The themes are heard in every tonality, meaning that they start with diferent notes every time.
The themes are repeated again and again in every voice and with different notes.

The piano texture created is also very impressive. Most of his pieces are also very long.

[ryguillian]

I looked him up and I know a bit about him now. Can anyone refer me to some of his best work?

For more discussion related to Sorabji, I would obviously invite you to register at the Sorabji Forum. In fact, my impetus in creating the Sorabji Forum was to off-load some of the Sorabji discussions from this forum and others to a centralized location; I can imagine some users might get annoyed with the amount of discussion the composer in question receives and as such I thought it'd be helpful to do something about it. (Although, as Alistair said, I'm not discouraging discussion of Sorabji here or anywhere else, simply providing a centralized location for it)

That said, Sorabji’s best work is of course a matter of opinion. For somebody just ”getting into” Sorabji I would highly recommend Marc-André Hamelin’s recording of Sorabji’s Sonata no. 1. This work is in a style similar to Scriabin and is highly enjoyable, granted that it’s not a good introduction to Sorabji’s late ”Opus clavicembalisticum” style.

—Ryan

[prometheus]

Yes, his first sonata is maybe better for a beginner because it is much less abstract and thus more concrete. There are more clear harmonies in that piece.

But most people are interested in the 'infamous OC'. This work has been recorded but the quality is poor. So Toccata No.1 is kind of a mini-OC since it has similar baroque forms. Sorabji has written more works like this but they are longer or not recorded.

Then Sorabji also has an impressionistic side with very evocative works.

Only you can find the correct way into Sorabji, based on what you like in music and what your background is. The average person on this board will not like Sorabji at all.

Though to most people Sorabji sounds like something written by Schoenberg, and those that followed his style, Sorabji rather follows the line J.S. Bach -> Busoni & Reger. His music is thus a sort of late Scriabin in terms of harmony but then poored into conservative baroque concepts.

If you don't like J.S. Bach and Scriabin I doubt you will like Sorabji. So maybe start with these very different composers, then Busoni and Reger and then Sorabji. Of course you don't have to do this but this may be a good way if you can't 'get it'.

[ahinton]

Yes, his first sonata is maybe better for a beginner because it is much less abstract and thus more concrete. There are more clear harmonies in that piece.

But most people are interested in the 'infamous OC'. This work has been recorded but the quality is poor. So Toccata No.1 is kind of a mini-OC since it has similar baroque forms. Sorabji has written more works like this but they are longer or not recorded.

Then Sorabji also has an impressionistic side with very evocative works.

Only you can find the correct way into Sorabji, based on what you like in music and what your background is. The average person on this board will not like Sorabji at all.

Though to most people Sorabji sounds like something written by Schoenberg, and those that followed his style, Sorabji rather follows the line J.S. Bach -> Busoni & Reger. His music is thus a sort of late Scriabin in terms of harmony but then poored into conservative baroque concepts.

If you don't like J.S. Bach and Scriabin I doubt you will like Sorabji. So maybe start with these very different composers, then Busoni and Reger and then Sorabji. Of course you don't have to do this but this may be a good way if you can't 'get it'.

Apart from the Schönberg reference (which I don't think is realistically applicable to "most people"), the rest of what you write here makes excellent sense. Toccata No. 1 is indeed in some respects a kind of pilot-piece for OC - it even ends in the same key!

As starting points, Sonata No. 1 is indeed arguably as good as any, although it will inevitably let the unsuspecting listener into only a very tiny part of what Sorabji is all about. Other possibilities are the pieces recorded by Donna Amato on Altarus AIR-CD-9025, all of which are relatively short (at least in Sorabjian terms) - the two pieces based on M R James stories of the supernatural, the Toccatinetta (which is an almost comical example of Sorabji trying to encapsulate himself on a musical postage stamp with room to spare) and the very late yet still Busoni-oriented Passeggiata Arlecchinesca. For his "tropical nocturne" side, Yonty Solomon's CD of Le Jardin Parfumé and Jonathan Powell's and Charles Hopkins's of Gulistan are excellent introductions. Of all these works, the longest (Gulistan) is still only 35 minutes - substantially shorter than Toccata I, let alone OC. I have long thought it important for people to recognise that, of the 60 or so piano works that Sorabji composed, some three-quarters would fit into a conventional length concert programme, so it is somewhat misleading to suggest that "most of his works are very long". As a matter of fact, Sorabji himself once said that if he'd want to introduce anyone to his work, he'd play his Concerto per suonare da me solo (1946); a three-movement piece of about an hour's duration dating from about halfway thorugh his creative career, it has been brilliantly played and broadcast by Jonathan Powell but his CD of it is not yet released - it should be out soon, however.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

In pop music, something which all people grow up with, long is everything beyond 2 and a half minute.


As for Schoenberg, I really get the impression that most people perceive Sorabji as modern atonal nonsense somewhere inbetween Schoenberg and Xenakis.

[matt haley]

what a load of drivel

[jre58591]

hmmm, i respect sorabjis music, i understand that it very complex and such, but i still havent heard enough of it. what are some pieces that one could listen to if they dont know too much about sorabji?

[maul]

I am ignorant. I have never heard of this Sorabji.

I think ignorance is bliss in this case.

[ryguillian]

As for Schoenberg, I really get the impression that most people perceive Sorabji as modern atonal nonsense somewhere inbetween Schoenberg and Xenakis.

Does this imply that Schoenberg and Xenakis wrote “atonal nonsense”? Most people? Most people that have heard Sorabji’s music? I can't imagine anybody mistaking Sorabji’s music for Schoenberg’s and especially not for Xenakis’s.


—Ryan

[ahinton]

Does this imply that Schoenberg and Xenakis wrote “atonal nonsense”? Most people? Most people that have heard Sorabji’s music? I can't imagine anybody mistaking Sorabji’s music for Schoenberg’s and especially not for Xenakis’s.


—Ryan

Nor I - nor, indeed, "most people" that have heard it. The trouble is that it is so easy for sweeping generalisations to be hammered home by the desultorily lazy use of that meaningless portmanteau term "most people" - which, of course, does not in reality embrace any evidence of it users having first consulted them all in order to ascertain their allegedly nigh-universal opinions. For the record in this case, the musical languages of Schönberg, Sorabji and Xenakis are all so remarkably individual that it is a gross insult (or at least it would be had it originated from the remotest understanding of any of their respective musical languages, which is obviously not the case here) to all three of them, both corporately and singly.

"Most people" do not subscribe to this forum. "Most people" spend little if any time listening to "classical" music of any kind, let alone Schönberg, Sorabji and/or Xenakis. That said, "most people" are - even in today's world - still very largely the convenient invention of point-provers who apparently cannot function fully without first pigeon-holing them to suit their non-arguments. In fact, "some people" are still individuals - and each of them will have a different take on the music of Schönberg, Sorabji and Xenakis as well as on any other of the hundreds of thousands of other composers whose music they may have heard.

Best,

Alistair

[steve jones]

Try Toccata No.1 by Powell.

It is a work made out of baroque forms taken to a complexity not often seen.

The melodies that dominate the work, as a melody does in most baroque forms, are made out of all 12 notes. Well, not always. The point is that they never belong to one key. The music does use constant harmonies but a key is never really established. So the music is not atonal. There are no tone rows or twelve tone techniques. The themes are heard in every tonality, meaning that they start with diferent notes every time.
The themes are repeated again and again in every voice and with different notes.

The piano texture created is also very impressive. Most of his pieces are also very long.

Is that what they'd describe as 'pantonal'?

Not heard this work but I shall certainly check it out. Sounds interesting.

SJ

[Etude]

I've read Sorabji's music being described as pantonal.  I would also recommend the Toccata no. 1 as a good starting point for Sorabji's mature style, although maybe starting with some of his less 'assertive' works (as Michael Habermann puts it) such as the three nocturnes, 'In the Hothouse', and Fantasie Espagnole would be a good idea.  I would also recommend the 'Trois Pastiches'.

[march05]

At the risk of sounding unpopular, I can't help wondering why sorabji is suddenly so fashionable in this forum, to the point of "i don't know sorabji, i'm ignorant"  Talking to people outside (at conservatories or concerts) about their opinions of sorabji (if they've heard of him) might help put things into perspective.

[stormx]

Nobody is ignorant because of not knowing Sorabji.
I have read a book about XX century classical music by Tomas Marco and he is not even mentionned.

He is pretty popular in this forum, tough 

[ahinton]

Nobody is ignorant because of not knowing Sorabji.
I have read a book about XX century classical music by Tomas Marco and he is not even mentionned.

He is pretty popular in this forum, tough 

Part of the "problem" if indeed there is one) here is perhaps that Sorabji is one of those composers whose reputation has largely only begun to develop to any noticeable degree some time after his music was composed; this may account for the absence of his name in the book that you mention.

Best,

Alistair

[contrapunctus]

Try Fantasia Ispanica and some of the etudes from the transcendental etude set.

[stevie]

sorabji was one gay ass ugly madrefackter,  hahaha he looked a bit random, but nice personality - and thats what counts!


jajajaja, this may sound harsh, if its offensive please do say so, but its true that he was gay, and IMO its interesting to note that his looks may have been 1 reason he developed the personality he did and wrote the music he did.

[thalbergmad]

I had only briefly heard of Sorabji before coming here.

Before that, I understood he was a bit of a nutcase who lived in a small cottage in Dorset, who threatened anyone with a lawsuit if they attempted to play his works in public.

To learn more, join the new Sorabji forum where some of the postings are almost as long as some of his works.

Thal

[jas]

At the risk of sounding unpopular, I can't help wondering why sorabji is suddenly so fashionable in this forum, to the point of "i don't know sorabji, i'm ignorant"  Talking to people outside (at conservatories or concerts) about their opinions of sorabji (if they've heard of him) might help put things into perspective.

Mmm, I noticed that, too. It's like anywhere else - if the more "outspoken" people like someone others will follow. I've never heard anything by him. Not through choice exactly, it's just never come up. From what I've read, though, it sounds like he writes the type of music I've never been able to warm to.

Does this imply that Schoenberg and Xenakis wrote “atonal nonsense”? Most people? Most people that have heard Sorabji’s music? I can't imagine anybody mistaking Sorabji’s music for Schoenberg’s and especially not for Xenakis’s.

Well, that would depend on how well someone knows the style of the composers in question. I've heard a few of Xenakis's works, a few more of Schoenerg's and none of Sorabji's, so I'd probably mistake all of them for Webern or Boulez.

I'm no modern music buff, as you can probably tell.

Jas

[ahinton]

sorabji was one gay ass ugly madrefackter,  hahaha he looked a bit random, but nice personality - and thats what counts!


jajajaja, this may sound harsh, if its offensive please do say so, but its true that he was gay, and IMO its interesting to note that his looks may have been 1 reason he developed the personality he did and wrote the music he did.

This isn't intelligent enough to be offensive as such - but it is arguably indicative of that need to up the medication as implied elsewhere on this forum...

Best,

Alistair

[stevie]

no, attractive people generally arent as secluded and randomly insane, me being the exception.

[ryguillian]

no, attractive people generally arent as secluded and randomly insane, me being the exception.

I’ve always thought Glenn Gould (when he was younger) was quite attractive, and it’s well known he led a rather hermetic lifestyle.

—Ryan

[prometheus]

When I gave of of my female friends a Goldberg Variation CD, the one from 1982 with a Sony cover, for her birthday the first thing she said was that she found him ugly. I don't know if she really meant this because she is very deep in social comments and non-verbal language, quite puzzling even for me. She can even read my mind, though she doesn't seem to realise that herself.


Anyway, Stevie should be ignored. I thouhg that was quite clear.

[arensky]

When I gave of of my female friends a Goldberg Variation CD, the one from 1982 with a Sony cover, for her birthday the first thing she said was that she found him ugly. I don't know if she really meant this because she is very deep in social comments and non-verbal language, quite puzzling even for me. She can even read my mind, though she doesn't seem to realise that herself.


Anyway, Stevie should be ignored. I thouhg that was quite clear.

Show her the 50's pix! My female students are fascinated by him, and a couple think he's hot.

But he started to dissolve physically in the late 70's, too much BP medication and no exercise, and a diet of scrambled eggs... 

[da jake]

According to a female friend who saw the cover of my Dover Alkan sheet music, Alkan - one of the biggest recluses in music history - was pretty hot when he was younger.

[contrapunctus]

He was very handsome when he was younger, IMO. 

He looked crazy and insane later in life.

[da jake]

Who? Gould, Alkan, or both? 

[alzado]

What an interesting thread!

Due entirely to heated discussions of Sorabji on this forum, I got the Opus Clav. on interlibrary loan and managed to listen to 3 of the four CDs.  Wanted to hear it all, but it is nearly four hours long and time caught up with me. 

As for the "blind spots" concerning this composer, it is interesting that our library, which is part of an affiliated group of libraries in our state, nonetheless had to go via interlibrary loan to get a copy of this music.  Despite the fact that our library has hundreds-- maybe even thousands -- of music CDs to check out.

A couple of points.  Sorabji cannot be glibly categorized.  The cadenzas and some of the most intense play could be compared to the blizzard of notes produced by Scriabin or others mentioned here.  But some of the variations are very light and lyrical, and played even languidly to a slow tempo.  Having heard several hours of Opus Clav, I would say there's a lot of variety to Sorabji.

As for the big flap about whether or not Sorabji was gay -- well, who knows?  It's not very pertinent.  Also, I believe the question came up to defame the composer -- this is very "dirty pool" in my opinion.

I have not decided if I "like" Sorabji's music or not.  In my case, it would be a little like the minnow deciding if he "likes" the whale, or the mouse deciding it "likes" the elephant.

Sorabji may probably just be beyond me at this point.  Some of his music, however, I can enjoy and have enjoyed.  Perhaps if I have a better understanding of his production I can choose more wisely.

I believe Sorabji is an important composer in the process of being discovered.  His renown was NOT increased by his eccentric prohibition on any and all performances of his works, or his absurd draconian limiting of the press runs of the works that WERE published in his lifetime.  Sorabji did not feel his works were for the "unwashed masses" or for the "unlettered hordes" and in that he was right.

One of the most enjoyable aspects of these Sorabji threads is the contribution of Mr. Aleister Hinton, who is a curator of Sorabji's works and a major expert on Sorabji.  Mr. Hinton was a longtime friend of the composer before his unfortunate demise.  The composer's, I mean.  Mr. Hinton is still very much alive.  Anyone who reads the rather plump book included with the 1960 release of the Opus Clav. CD will appreciate the importance of Mr. Hinton's contributions to the appreciation of this very brilliant and very individualistic sort of composer.  During Sorabji's lifetime, Mr Hinton and a few other very good friends did much to sustain and encourage this very fragile and brittle man to continue down his lonely road.

I did enjoy Mr. Hinton's advice to the detractor to "increase his medication."  This is classic Aleister Hinton.  Bravo!

[ahinton]

One of the most enjoyable aspects of these Sorabji threads is the contribution of Mr. Aleister Hinton, who is a curator of Sorabji's works and a major expert on Sorabji.

Thank you for the compliment - I should say, however (if you'll pardon my so doing) that my name is spelt Alistair and, as far as I know, only the long-deceased Englishman Mr Crowley ever styled himself "Aleister".

Mr. Hinton was a longtime friend of the composer before his unfortunate demise.  The composer's, I mean.  Mr. Hinton is still very much alive.

Well, I certainly was when I sat listening to soprano Sarah Leonard and pianist Jonathan Powell give a recital in Oxford, UK a few hours ago - and I think I still am...

  Anyone who reads the rather plump book included with the 1960 release of the Opus Clav. CD will appreciate the importance of Mr. Hinton's contributions to the appreciation of this very brilliant and very individualistic sort of composer.

The recording first appeared in 1989, actually - and was reissued last year - but, once again, many thanks for your kind words. One tries to do one's best!

Best,

Alistair