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Poll

evidently, which is harder?

25/6
25 (49%)
10/2
26 (51%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Topic: 10/2 vs. 25/6  (Read 2401 times)

Offline stevie

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10/2 vs. 25/6
on: April 21, 2006, 11:46:06 AM
now this is a more focussed poll, read my previous posts on the subject, and tell me your own experience, ive explained why 10/2 is so much more obviously harder, but will you ever learn?!

possibly

Offline chromatickler

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 12:14:49 PM
dude, have you ever seen the score to 25/1? it's so obviously harder than both put together.

Offline stevie

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 12:40:54 PM
chopets arent for joking, theyre a serious matter, remember the rach cut of 25/11? lessen be learnt

Offline Motrax

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 01:31:26 PM
There's a Rachmaninoff cut of 25-11? Please direct me to it at once!  ;D

I think 10-2 is harder than 25-6, but I find 10-1 to be harder than 10-2. I used to practice chromatic scales with 3, 4, and 5 on both hands, so 10-2 was pretty easy for me since I'd basically been practicing that technique for a rather long period of time. 10-1, on the other hand, is just plain painful.

But I do think my opinion is in the minority - most people seem to have an easier time with 10-1 and a much harder time with 10-2.
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline gruffalo

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 03:00:25 PM
10/2 by far. the perfect evenness required is extremely difficult.

Offline jamie_liszt

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 03:22:28 PM
Why bother? You know the answer goes something like this:

Depends on the pianist.

Me, I suck at the piano so I won't even attempt these. I'll stick to Canon In D and my simplified version of Fur Elise for kids.

Offline m

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 04:37:00 PM
Interesting thing, compare those two, ALL professional pianists I ever knew (and I am talking about hundreds) say 10/2 will be the hardest, whereas most of amatures would say 25/6. Just take your side.

Offline steve jones

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 08:29:21 PM

I find 25/6 more intimidating than 10/2, although they are both pretty scary!

SJ

Offline cziffra

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 09:55:45 PM
the fact thatr 25-6 is winning right now is very depressing.

Offline Waldszenen

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #9 on: April 22, 2006, 05:20:44 AM
25-6 for only one reason: 10-2 has the easiest LH in history.
Fortune favours the musical.

Offline nicco

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #10 on: April 22, 2006, 07:13:25 AM
25-6 for only one reason: 10-2 has the easiest LH in history.

So the LH in 25\6 is hard? Easier if you ask me.
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline erak

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #11 on: April 22, 2006, 10:48:07 AM
Why do people that haven't even played any of them even reply to this topic?

10/2 by far.

Offline stevie

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #12 on: April 22, 2006, 11:17:14 AM
25/6 is winning, is someone going to put forward a decent argument why?

Offline cloches_de_geneve

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #13 on: April 22, 2006, 12:35:30 PM
Yes. 10/2 has only 10 bars that are really hard (19-29) - that is equivalent to about 20 seconds of music. Anyone with a reasonably advanced technique can master 20 extremely difficult seconds provided s/he practices those 20 seconds long enough, say for a few months. Bars 1-18 and the end of 10/2 are not THAT hard.

In contrast, 25/6 is taxing across the board, that is during 2 minutes. Even though it perhaps never reaches the acrobatic challenges of the mentioned few peak bars of 10/2, it is more difficult in average. In addition, as already mentioned before, the left hand of 25/6 is more demanding than in 10/2.Taken together, these points may lead to 25/6 being perceived as more difficult than 10/2.

"It's true that I've driven through a number of red lights on occasion, but on the other hand I've stopped at a lot of green ones but never gotten credit for it." -- Glenn Gould

Offline gyzzzmo

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #14 on: April 22, 2006, 02:31:20 PM
25/6, obvious.
The melody line is much harder than in 10/2.
Also, 10/2 is only problematic if your 3,4,5 fingers of right hand arent well trained. 25/6 is much more complex though and thus it needs more skills.

Gyzzzmo
1+1=11

Offline chopinfan_22

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #15 on: April 22, 2006, 06:26:28 PM
I voted for 25/6, because I have more trouble with the technique to play it, than I do the technique to play 10/2. That's the only reason I voted 25/6. Both are difficult etudes.
"When I look around me, I must sigh, for what I see is contrary to my religion and I must despize the world which does not know that music is a higher revelation beyond all wisdom and philosophy."

Offline gruffalo

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #16 on: April 22, 2006, 06:45:16 PM
ok, i guess 25/6 is could be said as harder to acquire the overall technique required for this piece, but really, in terms of perfection, the 10/2 has to be more difficult.

Offline kriskicksass

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #17 on: April 23, 2006, 06:18:26 AM
I've only read through them, so all I can honestly say is that 10-2 has the easier reading. I've been told, however, that once you learn the proper wrist movement for 25-6 it becomes managable. 10-2 is all finger dexterity, so I doubt there's any 'easy' way out of it. No vote.

Offline demented cow

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 03:17:37 PM
Marik's comment that professionals would vote for 10/2 and amateurs for 25/6 points to a way one can improve polls of this type: In setting up a poll, you have to state whether you mean 'harder to perform at concert standard', or whether you mean (basically) 'harder to sightread' or 'harder to play without having to practise a lot'.
It seems like Marik's observation, if correct, is largely due to the fact that professionals have to work on perfecting their pieces, whereas amateurs don't.
So it's no wonder that an amateur would consider 10-2 easier: 10-2 is far easier to sightread than 25/6, it's easier to bring 10/2 up to three-quarters of the required tempo and reasonably advanced amateurs can play short passages from it at full speed with minimal practise. If the same amateur starts work on 25/6, chances are that, in the time they've taken to get 10-2 up to 3/4 tempo, they still won't be able to play any given bar of 25/6 at even half tempo. At any rate, I think that describes my experience. I won't vote in the poll because I haven't got either piece up to concert standard.

Offline stevie

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #19 on: April 25, 2006, 07:37:07 AM
very good points made there, cow, i think youre right.

i still stick with 10/2 being the hardest.

Offline gruffalo

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #20 on: April 25, 2006, 02:48:56 PM
yes, you said what i was trying to say, but better.

Offline m

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 05:11:06 PM
Marik's comment that professionals would vote for 10/2 and amateurs for 25/6 points to a way one can improve polls of this type: In setting up a poll, you have to state whether you mean 'harder to perform at concert standard', or whether you mean (basically) 'harder to sightread' or 'harder to play without having to practise a lot'.
It seems like Marik's observation, if correct, is largely due to the fact that professionals have to work on perfecting their pieces, whereas amateurs don't.
So it's no wonder that an amateur would consider 10-2 easier: 10-2 is far easier to sightread than 25/6, it's easier to bring 10/2 up to three-quarters of the required tempo and reasonably advanced amateurs can play short passages from it at full speed with minimal practise. If the same amateur starts work on 25/6, chances are that, in the time they've taken to get 10-2 up to 3/4 tempo, they still won't be able to play any given bar of 25/6 at even half tempo. At any rate, I think that describes my experience. I won't vote in the poll because I haven't got either piece up to concert standard.

Excellent post, Demented Cow!

There is one more reason. For amateur pianists double notes usually seem to be the most demanding and challenging type of technique. Usually, professionally trained pianists develope double notes from childhood and when the time comes to play 25/6 the main struggle is not with thirds, but with perfection of this etude for performing as a beautiful piece.

As you rightly noticed, it is much harder to perfect the 10/2 to high concert standards.

I attended many piano competitions, including several Rubinstein and Tchaikowski, where Chopin and/or Liszt etudes were part of the 1st round. I heard many folks there playing 10/2 and 25/6, where a lot of 25/6 were excellent. I can remember only one 10/2 you could say: "WOW!". It was Vladimir Ovchinnikov. It was beautiful--very musical, very quiet, very even, with no single note out of place. The chords in RH were perfect and did not loose one single note. LH gave beautifull support. The clarity was impecable, and pedaling was used only for giving right colors.

After the performance I asked him how did he practice it. The answer was about what I expected--slowly, for 5 years every day an hour. And this is the person, who had monstrous technical facilities, to start with.

Something to think about.

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 08:15:43 PM
I personally found op25. 6 the easiest, because i had a good 3rd technique too start with, and i picked it up fast. I do not play all of op10no2, as i aint had time to get stuck into it lately, but i play the 1st 2 pagesm and the last, so only need to do 1 more page. I find this harder, but personally i find op10no.1 the hardest of all Chopin tudes, and the 6ths etude

Offline presto agitato

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #23 on: April 27, 2006, 03:31:31 AM
Why bother? You know the answer goes something like this:

Depends on the pianist.


Exactly. Thas all about it.

Great Answerˇˇ
The masterpiece tell the performer what to do, and not the performer telling the piece what it should be like, or the cocomposer what he ought to have composed.

--Alfred Brendel--

Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #24 on: April 30, 2006, 02:55:52 AM
-uhh. never mind..
we make God in mans image

Offline brahms_schumann

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #25 on: May 11, 2006, 01:23:05 PM
I have played both. op 25/6 is much more difficult as op.10/2, therefore there are many pianists who can play op.10/2 perfect in different tempi but op.25/6 in its real tempo and in its real mood can be played very rare.

Offline viking

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Re: 10/2 vs. 25/6
Reply #26 on: May 12, 2006, 02:09:44 PM
I think it's fairly obvious that some people just suck at thirds.  Those people would naturally find 25/6 harder, but I dont.  Everyone's hands are different.  To me, 10/2 is much more difficult.
 

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