Can an Episode in a Fugue Have the Countersubject

[cnelson23]

When there is an episode within a fugue does that mean there can be no entries of the countersubject as well as the subject?  or just the subject?

[pianistimo]

neither has to be found according to this article:

www.tribalsmile.com/music/article_231.shtml

at least the 'embryo' of the episode.  (thinking that the 'countersubject' = answer - if i'm thinking correctly)  it "retards the reappearance of the subject (when used between answer and restatement of subject) and reentry of the countersubject' giving 'greater individuality to the part retarded.'   (note the use of the word 'retarded,' thalbergmad)

[prometheus]

The countersubject isn't the answer. The subject stated in the dominant is. A countersubject is an alternative subject that accompionies the main subject.

The episode parts are free. Becasue of this there is no strong piority on the melodic aspects. This means the composer can use these episodes to achive harmonic goals; modulations for example. By not stating the main themes of the fugue, and mabye not even alluding to one of them or making an incomplete statement, once can create contrast. This is not an essential part of a fugue but it can be aesthetically pleasing. The episode becomes a disgression.

Wait, the link Pianistimo provided explains all this and more.

Personally I have found figuring out what to do with the episode of a fugue quite difficult.

[pianistimo]

thanks for the clarification.  guess that in further reading the 'countersubject' provides counterpoint to either the subject or answer and is sometimes used and sometimes not used in fugues.

[prometheus]

Well, the whole subject and answer thing doesn't really make that much sense to me. Maybe it did when the fugue tradition started. Today you just look at subject statements, their tonality and wheneter they are real or tonal. At least I do.

But yes, a countersubject is something that is put against the subject in terms of counterpoint.
I wrote a fugue with two countersubjects once. And I had a second exposition where the countersubject of the first exposition because the subject.

[pianistimo]

sounds like you swim in music composition pretty well.   never thought of having a double exposition in a fugue, but suppose it is done and that the idea of switching things around carries on the tradition bach was starting - with not just inverted subjects (note by note) but by whole ideas (countersubject switching places). very creative!

[prometheus]

I am sure it was not my idea.

But you can do all kinds of tricks. That's what Bach did and what Sorabji did in their fugues.

The composition itself lacked polyphony. And I never checked if it was actually pianistic. Now my compositions have been shelved because I am now focussing on my cheesy fantasy novel, that I have to write for some stupid reason.

[cnelson23]

I have to analyze this fugue, No. 10 E minor from WTC I...  I know that episodes occur within the development sections.  So in this fugue I'm thinking it is actually a 'double fugue' in that there are two large sections, each containing a fugue.  Measures 1-19 is the 'fugue,' then 20-38 is the 'counterfugue' (the counterfugue just being double counterpoint at the octave trasposed up a fourth from the original fugue).  So I think 'development 1' begins in measure 5 and lasts until measure 10, although that is the same material I figured to label 'Episode 1.'  However I also have marked that countersubject enters in m. 5....but it wouldn't make sense to leave this material out of the episode....ugh.  Do you guys think that would be even a valid analysis, that the episode lasts the entire length of the development?  Have I totally confused myself?  Sorry if it sounds complicated, but if you take out your score and follow my explanation I think it makes sense.

[sevencircles]

I´m really interested in the technique of writing mirror-fugues.

The late J.S. Bach did it but who else?

[cnelson23]

I´m really interested in the technique of writing mirror-fugues.

The late J.S. Bach did it but who else?

Ughh.. thanks for answering my post.   

[Etude]

-disregard-