Coddling Mother... what to do ?

[m1469]

I have one student whose mother absolutely babies the child, even though the child is 6 years old, quite smart, and completely capable of handling herself in several situations her mother does not give her the space to do so in.

This is a challenge in some ways as far as the child's development is concerned, on all fronts, but it of course carries into this child's piano studies as well.  The main thing I will get into here (at this point) has to do with my studio class that I teach.

It seems to be understood between all parents except this one, that the children are to be *dropped off* at my home.  This particular parent doesn't seem to think that her daughter can handle this (and when mom thinks this, daughter lives up to her Mother's expectations).  However, when this child was alone, she was able to handle just fine, and was involved and engaged. 

This is actually the main reason I do not want parents to hover, because sometimes whatever their expectations of the children are, the children cannot get out from under in their presence.

Anyway, especially at this class I would like for Mom to take a hint.  She was even feeding her 6 year old at lunch time, like one would feed a baby  .  I think there are some psychological issues here, which I am not wishing to try to solve, but in the meantimes I would like mom to at least not feel the need to sit in on the class (and feel as though she should participate -- mom is also a student of mine, but I have a separate adult's class for her).  In general, mom is just overbearing and actually speaks for her daughter when her daughter should be the one to be speaking for herself (actually playing the name game for her daughter while she holds her daughter in her lap).

I don't know how to bring up to Mom that I do not want her sitting in on the class.  Does anybody have any suggestions ?


Thanks,
m1469

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Wow. I think that during a lesson, you should ask pedagogical questions to both the mother and the child, as they take turns answering the questions, such as whether the chord is major or minor, etc. This will get the child to think on her own and as you state she is capable of it, and since the mother sees that they take turns, she won't feel any consternation. Present encomium for their efforts and let them help out each other. I think that a mother and child bonding is very important and that by trying to separate them in such a way will do harm. My advice is to try to have them do things by themselves without actually separating them. Hope this helps.

[m1469]

Okay, thanks for your response.  First of all, I am talking mainly about this happening in a group class setting, where I have the rest of my kids and this one mother who has just decided to sit in because she does not think her child can handle it alone (which is actually not at all true).  Second of all, I am not running a "mommy and me" class, I am running a class for the kids.  Having a parent in there changes the dynamics of the entire class, especially since this parent takes it upon herself to try to be involved answering questions as though she were actually part of the class, or some "helper" parent -- which I have certianly not requested.

If this were a public or private school setting, a random parent sitting in and trying to be involved in this way would be odd and "dealt with" in some way, unless somehow confirmed with the school (and permissable mainly if there were special needs, which in this case, there certainly are not).

The other point is that she does not actually give her daughter the opportunity to answer anything, there is no true taking turns.  She answer *for* her daughter, before her daughter can answer for herself.  As I observe, this has probably been happening for quite sometime, so daughter has grown accumstomed to this and is unwilling to participate on her own while in her mother's presence (so Mom takes that as her cue to being "needed").  However, when mom is not there, daughter is perfectly capable of handling herself and she is engaged (as I stated above).

The kids' studio class that I run is surely not designed to be a bonding time with parents, this class is meant for the children to bond together.  As long as mom is there, these children's bonding is impeded somewhat overall (because the other kids wonder 'what is this parent doing here when all of our parents have left us' ?), and it most certainly will not happen for this individual child. Mom is interfering with her own child's development, and with my teachings. 

Everything else that comes up during private lessons, I am handling gradually.   However, this issue with the class needs to be resolved. 


m1469

[debussy symbolism]

I think that you need to talk to her one on one. That might be the only way. Be as kind as possible, saying that the daughter needs to do her own work. There is a chance that the mother might react very poorly and possibly leave, so be as gentle as possible. Obviously, this cannot continue as the child will grow accustomed to not thinking by herself. This is critical because as she is six, she is learning from her parents and this is also an age when children need to engage themselves, or they will not be able to do that once the mature. This is more serious than it appears(I am sure you know). If the mother declines you offer to not be around during a group lesson(which is very likely), then just have her around but not actually saying anything that contributes help to the child. If the child is stumped then she can help. I don't see how a parent could not let her own child think. One thing is to be protective, which I completely understand, but to regurgitate answers for the daughter is not good. If the mother cannot help to not answer for her daughter, then several things might be going on. The mother could be trying to show herself as smart person who the answers(I am pretty sure this isn't the case). The mother could just be not aware(probably the case). The mother cannot help, but to answer for her daughter in fear that the daughter will fail and become depressed(Maybe the case). Just talk to her and gently explain. Good luck to you. Hope this helps.

[luvslive]

Poor kid!  I agree that you should talk to her one on one and she should see that its for the good of her child that she backs off.  In my group classes parents are present, but definitely stay out of it.  The kids know their parent is there should something happen (a bloody nose for example), and feel safe but also will become part of the group.  This mom is probably just paranoid that if she is not there something bad will happen.  And you never can tell why she feels this way, but who knows what kind of experience could trigger it.  Maybe tell her she can wait outside (in the car or whatever) or that you will have her cell phone should something happen.  not that anything will.  Its just too bad that this child is going to end up feeling dependant on mom because her mother enabled it.

[m1469]

Well, thanks for your replies.  You are both right, I am going to have to talk with mom one on one.  I will assure you, she does not do this simply because she is afraid something will happen to her child.  I teach their private lessons inside their home, and I have observed a number of things linked to this behavior.  This is why I am concerned.

On another note, don't you think the kids respond differently to you and to each other when parents are not around ?  It was *certainly* true for me as I was growing up (and even still is in some ways), and it seems true for many kids, even if their home life and relationship with parents are great.

Generally, I would like for the kids to not have any kind of hovering influence like this in the class.  Maybe I am nuts to feel so strongly about this, but I do (and I know that I cannot state it as such to the parents).  If a parent felt concerned, I would of course let them sit in and check it out... but I don't think that is what is going on.  Besides, parents need to let their child go to regular classes everyday, without them.   Why is this so much different than that ?


m1469

[gruffalo]

tell her to get lost. i shouldnt think its too difficult. you are the teacher, you be the boss. tell her if she wants the best for her child, she can bog off. she can hover during the kid's practice sessions but just for that one hour, tell her to go to the park or something.

[gilad]

might want to make it clear to parents in the future that it's your policy not have sit ins,  if they have asked maybe offer to have them for one lesson only.
i feel sorry for the girl, it sounds like her mother has very little to do with her time.

[Bob]

Breezing through...

Here's one idea...
I would just ignore the mother in the class as much as possible.  Respond of course if she talks to you, but I was always communicate with the student.  Even if the mother answers, ask the student if that's what she (the student) wants.  Eventually, I would think the mother would stop answering since you ask the students the same question anyway.  Just keep directing things to the student. 

I had a parent sit in with a student for a few lessons.  Then the parent started answering a few questions for their kid.  I know the first few times it happened my reaction must have been shocked "did the walls just start talking?"  which probably helped keep the parent quiet.  I didn't mean it and nothing negative happened really, but the parent really broke my concentration in the lesson.  It was like having someone walk into the room while you're giving a lesson.  That approach could help.  The "What? Why are you answering? Thank you" - approach. 

You could suggest the mother brings a book so she doesn't get bored during the lesson.

This is all to imply that the parent can be present but shouldn't be involved in the lesson.

[m1469]

Well, so far my general tactic has been to address the child directly (when I can).  In the studio class, we do not have *that* many times where each student needs to answer specific quesitons (like, how many quarter notes are in a whole note..type stuff).  It was more during our introductions while everybody was naming each person. 

This little girl was sitting in Mom's lap while mom was hanging her own head (with hair draping) over daughter's face (so daughter's face could scarcely be seen) and saying the beginning of each of the other child's names for her daughter (until she herself ends up saying the entire name).  So finally, there was one name the Mom did not remember and laughed saying "even I don't remember that one..." ... so, without flinching, I asked the daughter directly if she remembered the other child's name and daughter rattled it off -- to her Mom's amazement.

Part of the problem is that this child (and her brother) are extremely spoiled.  At home, the kids run the show (a parenting concept I fundamentally *loathe*).  I will arrive to teach these two lessons, and Mom will ask daughter if she wants to go first.  Daughter either acts as though she doesn't want to, or just doesn't respond.  So, Mom sits down to have her lesson, and 10 minutes into it, daughter decides that she does want to "go first" so Mom gets off the bench.  Mom talks about different things that need to happen around the house, and says in reference to her daughter "well, if she lets me I will ... " get her lunch from the store (a situation that occured last studio class).  So, the problem is, daughter knows just what kind of behavior gets Mom's attention... what she has to do to be "cute" and "adorable" and so on.

Daughter will opt to be "cute" and "adorable" whenever Mom is around.  Ughh... this situation makes my skin crawl.  In this case, unless I *do* have a conversation with Mom about it, it would not make a difference where exactly Mom is sitting.  If Mom is there, daughter's attention goes to Mom, and Mom cannot seem to stop herself from being involved. 

One of the things that bothers me about this being in the class setting is that it affects all of the other children's experience, too.  The whole class becomes about this one little girl, whenever the chance presents itself.  LOL... the more I think about it, the more I just do not want to include this student in this particular class.

I have thought about including within my policies my desire to not have parents sit in on this class, but I am not really sure how to word it.

Okay...


m1469

[galonia]

I agree with Bob's solution - I've tried it before and it works, except mine is a slight variation - instead of asking the child if that's what s/he would have answered, I simply ask the child the question again.

So I ask child the question, parent answers.  Child repeats parent's answer.  Then I ask child exactly the same question again.

This surprises the parent so they don't have time to say anything before the child answers.

In this situation, either the parent "gets it" and stops answering for the child after I've done this a few times, or else they butt in and say, "But you've already asked that!"  To which I will reply, "Yes, but <insert child's name> has to answer for him/her-self"

At which point only the thickest parent doesn't get it...

[Bob]

You could have them move around some or partner up.  Then the kid couldn't sit in her mom's lap the whole time.

If the student acts different when the mother is there, that could be a great point to bring up with her.

I haven't read the whole thread.  I'm wondering what ages the other kids are and what the class is exactly.

[galonia]

You know, m1469, I was thinking about this more, and the way this child is being raised is rather disturbing, isn't it?  I mean, the child is essentially learning to be manipulative, by putting on the cute and adorable and getting what she wants out of it.

But you can't change the way people raise their kids.  All you can do, is insist on behaviour which is acceptable to your standards when you are teaching.  I've had some of these problems, but I don't think I've ever had them all in one child like this!

The "who goes first" problem - one of my teachers said, "This is a piano studio, not a democracy" when it comes to teaching siblings (and I guess it applies to parent-child pairs of students too).  m1469, YOU decide who goes first each lesson - instead of letting the mother ask, "do you want to go first today?"  Just say, "<insert name>, you are going first today, put your books up on the piano please."

If the child interrupts the mother's lesson, don't wait for the mother to say, "OK I'll get you your drink/ice-cream/whatever"  Just say to the mother, "No, stay where you are."  Then say to the child, "You can wait another ten minutes until your mother's lesson is over.  Sit quietly and read a book."  The child won't die if she has to wait till the end of the mother's lesson for whatever it is she needs (obvioulsy this does not hold if the child is seriously ill or the house is on fire).

Mother answering for child - I've written about that already.

Do you give homework?  I once had one student whose mother would check over his written homework before his lesson with me, and if he did something wrong, she would rub it out for him and make him do it again.  I didn't say anything about it, then one day she complained to me and said that he had to do almost everything all over again.  I told her the solution is, Stop looking over his work!  I pointed out that I don't mind if the homework comes back with heaps of mistakes, because it shows me where the child might not be understanding what's going on, and I might have to teach it again or more thoroughly.  Plus, a lot of kids feel a bit embarrassed about the teacher telling them they're wrong, but not embarrassed if their mother is telling them, so if the mother doesn't check the work, the child is more likely to be more careful.  I was right - most of the homework came back flawless after that!

I think the same holds for verbal questions during lessons - if the child knows the mother will help, well, she just won't do it.

Mother sitting in on group lesson - I think the one-on-one talk with her would help.  Do you have another room in which she may sit?  If she sits in a room next door, where she can hear the lesson but not join in, maybe she can be convinced that the child is ok by herself.  And then, maybe if the other issues (such as what goes on in the individual lessons) are sorted out, the group lesson one will be easier to sort out.  Parents sitting in is one thing, holding the child on the knee and essentially isolating the child from the group is completely unacceptable.  It defeats the purpose of having the group lesson and inviting this child to participate in it.

Good luck!

[abell88]

I teach classes which parents are expected to attend with their children, but they are to keep themselves in the background and basically act as materials managers, page finders, etc.  A colleague of mine, if a parent answers in class, will say something like, "Oh, Johnny's mother knows the answer. Isn't she smart!"

Maybe that's a little passive-agressive -- I think I prefer a more direct approach -- but she assures me it works.  If you can carry it off with humour it might do for you.

[keyofc]

m1469,
In my studio policy, I have a paragraph about Parental Visitation.
It mainly says: If a parent wants to sit in an adjoining room, they are welcome. However, I do not recommend it often because I have noticed children focus easier when parents are not there.  But feel free to use your discretion"  (Unfortunately the discretion of some lacks insight) Usually parents let me know they agree with it.

The student comes to a lesson hoping to get the approval from their teacher that their piano playing is progressing.  The parent is just putting more pressure on them when they are there because most students want the approval of their parents as well. 

I had a young boy whose mother sat in and she answered for him too.  I understand what you are going through.  The boy was fine when his mother was not there, but when she was there, he was horrible.  I don't have them anymore and in hindsight I would handle it very differently by letting her know it wasn't working earlier.  I would tell her the truth - he's fine when you're not here.  She also answered questions for him and it drove me nuts!  I felt funny correcting an answer if it was wrong, because I felt it would make him disrespect his mother.  It was crazy!
When I had a group lesson, however, she was not there.  And he participated like the others - and was even more positively vocal in the group lesson.  If she had come, the whole dynamics would have been changed as you said earlier.
But during his regular lesson - it was crazy.  She would say "YOu didn't check this" and "I don't know why he made so many mistakes tonite, he played it perfectly at home"  Well, I know why he made so many - his mother was sitting there flinching everytime he made a mistake.
In my opinion, it's better to late them know it's not working the way things are going.  If she sees it your way, fine.  If not, I would recommend another teacher.
I hated to lose a student - and always like a challenge, but this challenge was his mother, not him.  Not a musical challenge at all.
When music keeps me up or a musical problem, I feel that this comes with the territory.
But when the probelm does not involve music - I tell myself I have to decide how much I will take and how much I won't take.  The frustration from one student, if not dealt with properly, can affect your other students too.  And that's not fair to them either.
   I really don't get it - if my mom had sat with me during a lesson - I would have been humiliated. 
my two cents, or probably turned into a nickel...

[ingagroznaya]

m1469, you seems to be very sweet and reasonable person - very much like me ( ahah ha ah a). Your mother's behavior is a pure nonsense! When it comes to a group lesson, tell her that you can not let her be present on the lesson. Period.
Give her an explanation, but be very firm and short. You are a teacher.
Tell her -- children behave differently in the presence of parents. Without them around, young kids DO take responsibility for them selfs, act more mature and focus. I usually add:" You would not recognize your own child".  It's all true.
You don't have to give them long explanation. YOU are the one who is in charge!

Don't use same overly friendly voice with parents. Save it for the kids. Act firmer with adults. Took me so long to figure this one out - YOU MUST DEVELOP A SPLIT PERSONALITY to be a happy teacher. Good luck. It works.

[ingagroznaya]

Just remember -- you do not have to be always pleasant with parents. Sometimes it's really helpful to use more formal and controlling voice. You can come back to your usual nice self AFTER the matter has been resolved. Gradually.
If you are smiley type like me, DO NOT SMILE.
Some people respond to a reason, some - to a certain demeanor and voice. Check out a puppy training school, even if you do not have a puppy. Insist on taking a lesson. You'll be amazed with results.

[ingagroznaya]

Also, when women are upset or irritated, subconsciously we tends to raise our voice a 5th to an octave UP. It's very easy to be attacked by a male parent, using this pitch. Women often either backfire with hysterics or ignore you completely. It's all in the sound. Try going a 5th to an octave DOWN. Scale there GRADUALLY. Don't smile on the way up. Don't smile for a few days. Graduate them with a smile only a week AFTER results has been achieved. You will lose some of your students in the training process and while you are working on your own voice response/ fluctuations, but not as many as you think.
Treat this mother as a puppy, because this is who she is. HER own mother obviously has never been to a puppy school.
NEVER use a voice which is higher then a parent voice, when irritated or in conflict. Speak a bit SLOWER then you usually do. KNOW what you are talking about.
It's works for any sort of situation - late payments, collecting late fees, "make up lessons" absurd, removing a parent from a class room. If you absolutely must raise your voice, make sure it's DEEP. ( Rasing your rates is not a bad idea very soon after. For an extra reinforcement. But you don't have to, of course )

[m1469]

Thanks for all of your replies, and the time and attention it took you to make them.  It has been quite helpful for me and I think I know what I am going to do now.  I am either going to have a talk with Mom and let her know that her child does indeed do fine without her or, I am also considering just not having this child participate in the class.  Actually, I am considering kicking her out of the studio all together .


Thanks again,
m1469

[ingagroznaya]

Don't do the talk, m1469. That's where we usually fail. Say a few sentences in a firm voice and walk away immediately acting very busy. She'll follow your directions, if you will not give her a chance to respond. What ever you do, don't reason.

If she'll protest mildly -- ignore it all without saying a word. Don't respond at all or act understanding. She will disappear right before the lesson. If her protest is more aggressive and she gets vocal, tell her: " I would have to discontinue our lessons OTHERWISE". Stress the word "otherwise". She'll get it. In the future, stress your parents before they will stress you out. It's nothing, but a puppy game of "who is the boss". The boss is you.

[m1469]

Don't smile for a few days. Graduate them with a smile only a week AFTER results has been achieved.

That's not how I run my business !!! 

[ingagroznaya]

m1469, perhaps you do not run it long enough. Some people are unreasonable. Majority will behave respectfully and will appreciate your work, but there will always a bad apple to ruin the fun. Don't let those sour grapes run your business for you, that's all I am saying.

I am looking back and I can not believe what I've put up with in the past as a younger teacher. I was schooled in eastern europe and I am genuinely amused by how unbolted private education system can be some place else. Some people step all over our sensitivities, sensibilities, love of music and a will to pass our knowledge. I do not see it being beneficial to ANY of my students in the long run.

[plunkyplink]

This is a simple problem involving boundaries. No problem to solve that! All you have to do is set limits with the overbearing mom and the child in the studio class, and set limits in their home lessons. State your limits clearly, aim for "honest and direct". This is actually the kindest thing you can do for yourself, the child and mom and the rest of the kids. You can't expect people to respect your boundaries if they don't know what they are. Usually people are grateful when they are told honestly what's expected of them.  Express yourself as you have done in this thread, you've done so quite eloquently, IMHO.