Pain from octaves (need quick response please)

[henrah]

I have been playing octaves all day (whenever I can during the day) from seeing an awesome pianist by the name Mark Viner play on the weekend. He has fantastic octaves, and monkey see monkey do. Or try atleast.

Anyway, a couple of minutes ago I experienced a sharp tingling pain in my wrist, and now a slow pulsing pain (only slight) in my forearm (the muscle that I can feel moves my fingers, not my thumb), and everytime I go back to play it comes back, straight away.

I have a piano lesson in less than an hour and I'm wondering whether I should cancel it or not. Is this kind of pain serious?
Henrah

[infectedmushroom]

This sounds like it's serious. I've had the same pain as you describe, a couple of weeks ago after some intense practising. I didn't play the piano for a week until the pain was completely gone (when playing the piano).

If I were you, I should cancel your lesson. The pain isn't there without a reason... I think you should let your wrist rest for a couple of days (of course, depends how long the pain will stay).

[crazy for ivan moravec]

at this point, i think it's you who can best decide whether you should take lessons or not. does the pain really bother you, or can you play with the pain? either way, these are probable signs of injury... i tend to think that the risk is not worth it, especially with just one lesson. you can always have more lessons in the future.

so i suggest you take that hand of yours to a doctor and have it checked. or observe it before going to the doctor so that you can describe it better to him/her.

all the best,
crazy

[henrah]

Ok, cheers for the advice guys, much appreciated. I think I'll give it a rest until tomorrow.

Henrah

[soleil_nuage]

I am relatively new to this piano-playing business so please take my advice with a grain of salt.

It sounds like you are overdoing it and putting yourself at risk for tendonitis.  I once saw my piano teacher doing a Hanon exercise in octaves.  He wasn't expecting me to do it but was joking around about something else.  I thought it was really cool what he was doing.  So, I went home and tried to mimic him.  After just 2 runs of the Hanon, my hands hurt.  It just proved that my hands were not ready for me to do octaves for that long.

[iumonito]

Hi Henra,

More than a day's rest is called for.  Hopefully your teacher advised you in that regard when you told her/him what was going on.

I am no doctor, but I think your muscles (not your tendons) are reacting involuntarily, which, I think, means you were playing your octaves mostly with the forearms and with relatively stiff wrist.  I wouldn't worry about it being permanent, but playing through pain is a really bad idea.  Graffman, Fleisher, Beroff (and countless less talented).

Next time you feel like playing octaves, it may pay off to play them from the larger muscle units of your back and upper arm, and to focus on flexible (collapsing) wrists and (if called for) knuckles.  These are your shock absorbers and will eventually help you play loud and fast without getting tired or hurting yourself.

Another three thoughts on octaves, stay near the keyboard, with shaping movements so not all octaves use the same muscles in the same way, and try to be close to where you need to be if you are going between black and white keys (that is, stay close to where they meet).

Enjoy your vacation.  Maybe you can read some Matthay, Breithaupt or Taubman/Golandsky while you rest.

[faulty_damper]

Your problem is very serious, obviously.

But the remedy to your problem is quite easy to understand, quite difficult to actually remedy.
The reason why some pianists can play octaves (or any other complex techniques) is because they have the physical abilty to coordinate their body in a manner that maximizes efficiency and efficacy.  Virtually anyone can do this but few ever do (they usually either give up or continue to "practice" using inefficient and ineffective techniques to get better, which never happens - they will always suffer or feel like they can improve because it is not as easy as they feel comfortable with.)  This is easy to understand?

What is the remedy?

You mentioned whether or not you should go to your lesson.  I assume this lesson is from a piano teacher.  Is it not the job of the piano teacher to teach you how to play the piano?  Then why would you consider cancelling your lesson?  If your teacher is able and capable to teach you, then let him teach you.  Do not think that because you injured yourself the lesson is of no use.  It should be a lesson that is invaluable as you would learn the technique to play octaves (which is not simple at all as it requires complex coordination of your body to actually execute properly.)

I experienced a sharp tingling pain in my wrist, and now a slow pulsing pain (only slight) in my forearm (the muscle that I can feel moves my fingers, not my thumb), and everytime I go back to play it comes back, straight away.

Think of this pain as a serious flaw or lack in technical abilty.  The forearm muscles are pulsing pain which most likely means they have been held in co-contraction for long periods of time (tension).  The wrist has sharp pain which most like means the wrist is held at an angle that does not align with the tendons of the fingers through the wrist that connects to the forearm muscles (misallignment of hand and forearm).  The added tension of the co-contracted forearm muscles adds to the sensation of pain.

More practice (the way you have been practicing) will not improve your abilty to play rapid octaves so if you are wise, you would cease practicing the way you have been practicing.  Learn a more efficient and effective way - it will be easier and requires less practice.  And once mastered, it requires no maintenance other than use in the literature should you use the technique for such aims.

[invictious]

Ok

You might be too tense, you shoudln't be, it can cause serious injuries, wrist movement and relaxation is the key

You might have tendonitis, or Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, or another form of Repetitive Strain Injury

[henrah]

What is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?

[rimv2]

I have been playing octaves all day (whenever I can during the day) from seeing an awesome pianist by the name Mark Viner play on the weekend. He has fantastic octaves, and monkey see monkey do. Or try atleast.

Anyway, a couple of minutes ago I experienced a sharp tingling pain in my wrist, and now a slow pulsing pain (only slight) in my forearm (the muscle that I can feel moves my fingers, not my thumb), and everytime I go back to play it comes back, straight away.

I have a piano lesson in less than an hour and I'm wondering whether I should cancel it or not. Is this kind of pain serious?
Henrah

Ah noticed in that Gnomereigen video (was you Correct?) your pinky never seems to rest. Tis not good.

Is this pain in the top or under the forearm?

The top of the forearm  (closer to the elbow) means you is too tense, and/or that motion is being impeded somewhere. You may need to learn to open up and loosen up.

AH have little idea what could cause the pain from under (near the wrist) aside from some sort or repetitive motion and/or the physical banging down of the wrist while doing octaves in a catlike but  locked position.

Loosen up, or else, jerk

[Bob]

It takes time to develop.  Work up to it slowly -- like in years.

Take a rest.  Back off the playing but keep doing something (something easy) so you keep the good things from the work you did.

[ted]

I find it curious how people reason differently with piano playing than with other causes of pain. If you had pulled weeds out of the garden all day and experienced wrist and arm pain you would immediately attribute it to too much repetition of similar movements, give it a rest for a while and think nothing more about it. It strikes me that playing octaves ALL DAY is no different from pulling weeds ALL DAY.

I don't think the human mechanism is built to repeat one demanding movement all day, especially if tension is involved. I find that I can play the piano for more or less as long as I want to without adverse effect, no matter how physically difficult, provided considerable variation exists in my movements and I remain relaxed. I rarely practise one movement on its own, but if I did, I would alternate short periods of it with a variety of other playing.

In similar fashion, if I had to pull many weeds out of the garden I would try to continuously vary the exact way I did it and the tools I used so that no muscle group was burdened for longer than a few minutes and any repetitions were carried out in as relaxed a manner as possible.   

[keyofc]

I agree that playing octaves all day would probably come back to haunt you.
But still, your hands are better protected than not - so a doctor visit couldn't hurt
When I was learning how to play octaves, I was taught as soon as I played the octave to bring my hand back to its original unstretched position before playing the next octave.  This puts less stress on the muscles.  But all day?  It would still probably stress them.  GOod luck!

[steve jones]

Henrah,

I just been watching your Liszt practice vid, and I noticed that you perform white octaves on the edge of the keys.

From what Iv heard, its preferable to play octaves up by the black keys if possible. This way, it only takes a slight movement to move the 4th finger and thumb onto black octaves. Give it a try. If you can keep you hand relaxed, then its a far more economical way of playing, and one that I see most of the pro's using.

So for example, if your playing a C octave, your 1 and 5 could be right up by the C#'s, with your 4 almost hanging over the C# waiting to hit it. Then all it takes is a tiny jump of the thumb to be on the next octave up.

Not sure if this will help!

SJ

[henrah]

Hm, that sounds like a great idea Steve! Unfortunately I'll have to wait quite a while to practise as my kitten has got me bad on my finger, it's a pretty deep cut so I'm letting the blood coagulate and heal it up.
Henrah

[steve jones]

Ouch! Are you sure its not Leopard cub?

SJ

[henrah]

No, just an adorably innocent evil little kitten who has ace aim with her paws. She can predict where the object is going really quick, and sometimes gets your hand instead of the object It's healing though, and I've been trying out your suggestion and it's great!

Thanks very much,
Henrah

[morton]

Hi Henrah,

I am no expert but take a look here.
https://www.answers.com/topic/de-quervain-s-disease?method=22
Try the the Finkelstein test, you might want to see a doctor and get it treated if you experience any pain. You don't want it to get worse.

Morton

[steve jones]

Wow, I find that stretch quite painful! Yet I dont experience wrist pain at any other time. I wonder if the Finkelstein is more of a cause than an indication of injury? 

SJ

[henrah]

Well the pain has gone, but tension still comes about in my RH fairly quickly when I start playing so I'm going to have to work on relaxing that hand.

Morton, I tried that stretch and it hurt! I think Steve's right, it might be more of a cause than a result.
Henrah

[henrah]

I just asked my dad to try the same stretch and it hurt him too. Maybe everyone has DeQuervain's syndrome...

Do you experience the pain too morton?
Henrah

[morton]

I do know several pianists/people who do not experience such sharp pains while doing the Finkelstein. I was also told by the doctor that rest and possibly steroid shots might make a difference. I write a lot and so I am bound to have this pain, I choose to live with it instead of taking steroid shots. But for you serious pianists, I am sure it means a lot.

As I said, I am not an expert but this might be worth asking your doctor about. I merely wanted to point this out since most pianists seem to talk about tendonitis but very few people know about de quervain (there is also the intersection syndrome  )

Morton