Bach Is Best

[bach-liszt]

As one noted instrumentalist said, "Bach has everything.  His mind is universal, his heart is overwhelming and his spirit is transcendant."

If it were possible to poll the greatest composers of the last several centuries, guess who the vast majority would pick!?       Actually, of course, the overwhelming preference of these composers (Bach) is a matter of record in most cases.

Bach set the standard in his craft at such a high level, some have argued that all good and great music is in some ways derivative of Bach.

[BoliverAllmon]

The Lutheran church views him as the fifth Evangelist.

[bach-liszt]

The Lutheran church views him as the fifth Evangelist.

That is true, and it is hard to argue with that!

[sauergrandson]

Uhm..... But Beethoven, MOzart, Haydn, Liszt, Chopin, Schubert, Roman Catholics.

Rachmaninov, Moussorgsky, Tschaicowsky, Russian Orthodox.

Brahms and Mendelssohn: Luther ones.


Uhm.. I've get it:         Bach: The father
                                   Mozart: The son
                                   Beethoven: The holy ghost

[alzado]

Are you trying to suggest that no one should play anything else but Bach?

What a boring world you live in.

That is, if I understand you right.

Among the top rank of musical genius, it seems silly to pick one composer and say, "THE BEST."

[bach-liszt]

I realize the subjective nature of the label "best."  No, I was not meaning in any way that only Bach should be played (notice my hyphenated forum "name"  ), just that for me, and for so many others, Bach's music moves us, uplifts us and inspires the most of all the many other fine composers out there.

[pianote]

yea. I definitely have a lot (if not the most) respect for pianists who can play bach flawlessly.

[Waldszenen]

These days a Bach pianist won't sell quite as well as a Chopin or Liszt pianist. That's why Lang Lang and Yundi Li seem to do so well. Everyone would rather see Liszt's Transcendental Etudes than some Bach Preludes and Fugues, or a massive Romantic concerto than a Baroque concerto.

As previously mentioned, I have very high respect for Bach pianists.

[thorn]

Bach is dull and boring... the only time i ever play anything of his is to balance out a program..

yeah he is like pretty much the grandfather of all music.. but that's exactly all he did... began it.. for other people to improve on and make better and more interesting and enjoyable.

as for the quote "Bach has everything.  His mind is universal, his heart is overwhelming and his spirit is transcendant." yes he had a great mind... but i wouldnt say he had an overwhelming heart and a transcendant spirit.. he wrote music for music's sake... thats all... im sorry if im being overly narrow minded here, but all Bach is is like the foundation of music and every major composer since him has built on what he's done.. fair enough there are traces of Bach in everything.. thats because Bach was pretty much the original and wrote so much stuff that most combinations of notes were probably exhausted

i admire Bach pianists too... particularly once who have recorded his complete works... but to me... Bach just the same as scales and arpeggios.. something that has to be done to get suitable technique to play something worthwile

[bach-liszt]

Thanks ,Thorn, for your comments and for the others above.

Recently, I have been working on some Bach pieces on the organ.  For example, I have been playing the choral preludes, "Adorn Thyself Oh My Soul,"  "Beloved Jesus, We Are Here, " which are truthfully so chalked full of emotion that I have to sometimes really pay attention to the notes! 

If I sometime get the  "blahs,"  I like to play on the organ those awesome preludes and fugues.  The g minor fuge, for example,  is as  rythmic, brilliant, thrilling and postive music you can ever hope to hear!  I played it for some high school students a while back, and when the main theme entered into the "feet" (the bass pedal) they could not believe such incredible music was written!!

It is amazing, not only was Bach the most profound of musical intellects, he had that overwhelming heart that went with it.  I have spent a good part of my musical life delving into his music, and I have no intention of stopping!

[bach-liszt]

[

[pianistimo]

saurgrandson,  can you tell me where you read about beethoven, mozart, haydn, and schubert being roman catholic.  from much of their music (esp. thinking at first of haydn's creation - it greatly challenged roman catholic belief.  ie the aria 'by thee with bliss.'  this particular aria made a point to challenge the sinfulness of married sex and put it before the fall and part of the creation - at the end of adam's naming the animals and going off to the 'bower' with eve).

as for beethoven, the ninth symphony isn't particularly catholic and doesn't contain any 'masses' or any of the dies irae theme (which was always picked up on by roman catholics who wanted people to fear the judgement). 

as for mozart - i think he was at times mystical (but only, to my way of thinking, due to the ideas that were proposed by the masons).  did he write masses?  were they commissioned or did he puposefully write them?  to me requiems are different than masses.  esp. if the scriptures are purposefully chosen.

schubert - not sure either.  he seemed to waiver between a fear of death and the afterlife and the mythical stories he picked up on in the 'erlking' to the beautiful settings of the 'ave maria' etc.  suppose that the idea of the ave maria would be roman catholic.  i just never placed him as a catholic in my mind.  perhaps it was something i assumed he was not because of the idea that german protestantism seemed to be spreading and that brahms and mendelssohn seemed to choose their scriptures for music without regard to specific doctrines of the catholic church.   the brahms requiem is very protestantish.

ps i'm not a scholar on all this - just asking.  btw, i too love bach.  the various tones that he brings out as jewels on the organ or harpsichord.  you must be a pretty good organist, bach-liszt.  just found out that the lord and taylors organist is on this weekend on sundays in the afternoon.  it's an awesome organ - but probably outdone recently by the new organ in the kimmel center.  i thought they were doing saint-saens organ concerto there sometime.  lost track.  will look it up now.

may 11-13 but it's SOLD OUT.  rats.  i knew i should have bought tickets early.  now, i must wait by the door for no shows.  it should be an awesome recital.

[mikey6]

i thought they were doing saint-saens organ concerto there sometime.

There's an organ concerto?

[sauergrandson]

saurgrandson,  can you tell me where you read about beethoven, mozart, haydn, and schubert being roman catholic.  from much of their music (esp. thinking at first of haydn's creation - it greatly challenged roman catholic belief.  ie the aria 'by thee with bliss.'  this particular aria made a point to challenge the sinfulness of married sex and put it before the fall and part of the creation - at the end of adam's naming the animals and going off to the 'bower' with eve).

as for beethoven, the ninth symphony isn't particularly catholic and doesn't contain any 'masses' or any of the dies irae theme (which was always picked up on by roman catholics who wanted people to fear the judgement). 

as for mozart - i think he was at times mystical (but only, to my way of thinking, due to the ideas that were proposed by the masons).  did he write masses?  were they commissioned or did he puposefully write them?  to me requiems are different than masses.  esp. if the scriptures are purposefully chosen.

schubert - not sure either.  he seemed to waiver between a fear of death and the afterlife and the mythical stories he picked up on in the 'erlking' to the beautiful settings of the 'ave maria' etc.  suppose that the idea of the ave maria would be roman catholic.  i just never placed him as a catholic in my mind.  perhaps it was something i assumed he was not because of the idea that german protestantism seemed to be spreading and that brahms and mendelssohn seemed to choose their scriptures for music without regard to specific doctrines of the catholic church.   the brahms requiem is very protestantish.

ps i'm not a scholar on all this - just asking.  btw, i too love bach.  the various tones that he brings out as jewels on the organ or harpsichord.  you must be a pretty good organist, bach-liszt.  just found out that the lord and taylors organist is on this weekend on sundays in the afternoon.  it's an awesome organ - but probably outdone recently by the new organ in the kimmel center.  i thought they were doing saint-saens organ concerto there sometime.  lost track.  will look it up now.

may 11-13 but it's SOLD OUT.  rats.  i knew i should have bought tickets early.  now, i must wait by the door for no shows.  it should be an awesome recital.

Uhm. It's well known, or not? Since I'm in the jungle now, I don't have a good library nearby. But wikipedia could help. There's an article about Beeth's religion. Or about Mozart and Haydn:


The extremely close 'brotherly' Mozart-Haydn connection may be an expression of Freemasonic sympathies as well: Mozart and Haydn were members of the same Masonic lodge. Mozart joined in 1784 in the middle of writing those string quartets subsequently dedicated to his Masonic brother Haydn. This lodge was a specifically Catholic rather than a deistic one.

[Waldszenen]

Bach is dull and boring... the only time i ever play anything of his is to balance out a program..

Dull and boring to you, illuminating and creative to me.

[pianistimo]

dear saurgrandson,  thanks for the response!  i didn't realize that the lodge was a catholic one.  anyway - there's much to learn in music - and first impressions don't always give the whole story.  suppose that we remake people and composers intow hat we think they are - but they are all unique and so different - also according to the era they lived in.

did you say you're in the jungle with no l ibrary around.  do you mean at work or literally in a jungle?  what exactly are you doing in a jungle?  and, where may i ask do you put your computer?

[bach-liszt]

Pianistimo, I am working hard to be an good organist.  I had the pleasure a while back playing a recital on the large, five manual organ at the Crystal Cathedral - the console looked like what you would expect on the space shuttle - what an amazing spread of sound.

Concerning the magnificent Wannamaker Organ at Lord & Taylor's in Philidelphia, check out the website at www.wanamakerorgan.com, on the site they sell the  dvd/cd of Virgil Fox conquering that large instrument and it is great.

[sauergrandson]

dear saurgrandson,  thanks for the response!  i didn't realize that the lodge was a catholic one.  anyway - there's much to learn in music - and first impressions don't always give the whole story.  suppose that we remake people and composers intow hat we think they are - but they are all unique and so different - also according to the era they lived in.

did you say you're in the jungle with no l ibrary around.  do you mean at work or literally in a jungle?  what exactly are you doing in a jungle?  and, where may i ask do you put your computer?

Uhm.... I live in Mexico, in  "Chiapas" state. Chiapas East has three zones: Highland, Border (with Guatemala) and "Jungle". It is the "Lacandon Jungle". I'm a deacon, my parish is here, and, of course, internet is almost everywhere (thanks God).

[pianistimo]

wow.  i had no idea.  what's it like?

[sauergrandson]

wow.  i had no idea.  what's it like?

Well, it's like this:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=16.907713,-92.087746&spn=0.051243,0.077248&t=h&om=0

Ocosingo is my home.

[walking_encyclopedia]

i take kind of a middle view on the topic. Currently working on the prelude and fugue no. 23, i absolutely love bach. Bach is complex, hard, intricate, and very enjoyable and satisfying to play. It takes some real work to bring out the voices and interpret the music. I plan to start the preludes and fugues nos. 23 and 24 shortly.

I also would not go so far as to say that Bach is the "best composer". There are too many great composers out there to make a statement like that.

Those who think that Bach is dull and monotonous, like Thorn for instance, will play Bach that way. And there's nothing worse than listening to a performance of Bach that doesn't have some enthusiasm. Just listen to Glenn Gould sometime. Massive dynamic changes, perfect tone and projection. and the singing in the background helps too.

I have absolutely no respect for pianists who love to show off their technical prowess by keeping a steady diet of Chopin and Liszt etudes, Liszt paraphrases, and flashy showpieces. If you don't work on a lot of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, the real greats, you'll end up shallow. A 'stuntman' at the piano.

Those are my thoughts. i'm sure a lot of you liszt-lovers out there would disagree with me 

it's not that i dislike romantic pieces. But that isn't everything. and there's too much amazing Bach piano music out there to pass it all up in favor of pieces that are more instantly-gratifying. So go out there and start exploring some Bach.