A snail trill's faster then I can :(

[ilovemusic]

I am very sad my trills are REALLY slow.

Any good trick for increasing the speed (except
for trilling) ?

[BoliverAllmon]

relax and make sure to use your wrist with your fingers not just your fingers doing the trill.

boliver

[TwinkleFingers]

so does my cat

[robert_henry]

Here are three thoughts:

Think from your arm forward, not your fingers back.  The arm, through the wrist, provides the power.   The idea is that you are throwing your weigth around, but obviously in a controlled manner.

Now, throwing your weight around is great, but this degree of looseness I'm talking about doesn't apply to your fingers.  Sometimes the ends of your fingers should be made like stone.  You can imagine you are playing with your bones rather than the skin at the end of your fingers.  Why is this important?  Because when you throw your weight, the weight needs to have a solid conduit through which it might pass its power.

Finally, you need to pulse your trills.  They need rhythmic direction.

Robert Henry

[ilovemusic]

Thanks for the responds !!

Here are three thoughts:

Think from your arm forward, not your fingers back

Robert Henry

I don't  understand this exactly.


This means wobbling with the wrist a bit ?
This does help... This is the case with all trill's combo's (3/4, 4/5) ?

But still trilling with 3/4 or 4/5 on D# and E is tricky. Harder to use the wrist, I suppose.



And... when doing a fast chromatic scale, the same
wrist movements is allowed ? I have a teacher who
suggested the hand should remain still and the fingers
should do the work. Pretty hard to do so....

[BoliverAllmon]

Finally, you need to pulse your trills.  They need rhythmic direction.

Robert Henry

This is a very important point about trills. I spent what seemed like an eternity on my trills on the Haydn sonata just to make sure I got them correct. Once you get the hang of it though it becomes second hand nature and you can start having a more lively trill with dynamics in it.


boliver

[robert_henry]

Think from your arm forward, not your fingers back.  The arm, through the wrist, provides the power.   The idea is that you are throwing your weigth around, but obviously in a controlled manner.

People tend to think that since it is our fingers that actually touch the keyboard, that our problems must lie within our fingers.  I am stating that the fingers are the final step in learning a passage or technique.

Here is the general way I think our bodies should work (in three basic ways):  Firstly, all of us need to be reminded sometimes that our bodies (primarily the torso, shoulders, elbow) provide the basic power and weight for our playing.  Secondly, the wrist, depending on the situation, can act as a conduit for this power, or even as another source of power.  It is also a guide.  Finally, the fingers are the LAST link in the chain, not the first.  And for fast playing in general (trills, scales, arpeggios, and especially chords and octaves) the ends of the fingertips must be taut and strong enough to handle all the weight that you are throwing at them so that they won't collapse.  But IMHO, most problems with piano playing involve the misuse of the wrist.

I hope that helps.  My wife and I just bought a digital video camera (finally), and I want to post little mini-lessons on my website.  I would appreciate feedback as to whether this would be useful for you guys, and if so, what kinds of things would you like help on.  I'll probably pose this question in a new thread too.

Robert Henry

[ilovemusic]

Yes, thanks !!

I am working very  hard on my trill's now. I hope once
the skill is aquired it stays....

[trunks]

. . . Finally, you need to pulse your trills.  They need rhythmic direction.
Robert Henry

Hi Robert,
I can't agree more here. Exactly what I do. It actually makes the trilling much easier!

[faulty_damper]

By pulse, you mean accenting the trill to the beat.

[arigatuso]

Practice routine for the COORDINATION of the fingers.
Let's make a 2323232.. trill

Exercise A
------------

1. Put your right hand hand on the keyboard. First finger on C and 4th finger on F. Press both keys and let those finger there. (So the movements of your hand are restricted).

2. First, make sure you can play repeated notes with finger 2:

2222, 2222, ...
then 22222222, 22222222...
up to 16 22222's.

the coma (,) represent a little rest

Use minimal finger motion, do not lift the finger from the keys. Finger 3 is resting on the surface of E, without pressing.

3. Now do the same with finger 3. Finger 2 is resting on D.

4. Now do the same with both fingers togheter. Make sure there is finger motion and that you are not pressing with your hands (this comes later).

5. Start exercise 2 but insert a note with the other finger every 4 notes, then every 3 then every 2 notes then to finger togheter.

2.3 is a chord (2 and 3 togheter)

2 2 2 2 2.3 2 2 2 2.3 2 2 2 2.3 2 2 2 ....
2 2 2 2.3 2 2 2.3 2 2 2.3 2 2 ..
2 2 2.3 2 2.3 2 2.3 2  ...
2 2.3 2 2.3 2 2.3 ...
2.3 2.3 2.3 2.3 ....

Check you are doing 2.3 with your fingers and not pression both keys with your hands.


6. Do the same with 3.
3 3 3 3 3.2 3 3 3 3.2 ...

7. Check your trills.

Exercise B
-------------

1. 2 2 2 2 rest 2 2 2 2 rest... You pass this when you can do this 7 times well.

2. 23 23 23 23 rest 23 23 23 23

3. 232 232 232 232..

4. 2323 2323 2323 2323 2323

5. 23232 .....

and so on..

Combine exercise A and B. Create others and then tell me your results.

I agree completly with the other post but they are advanced pianists and they seem worried about relaxation, wrist, forearms,.. VERY IMPORTANT THINGS but you have to teach your BRAIN to COORDINATE the fingers first. Then you will control volume of the sound, speed, and other things with the rest of your body.

Other TIP: TRY TO NOT THINK ON THE RYTHM!!!!! CONCENTRATE ON THE MOVEMENTS FIRST (not ever, but do this kind of practice too -rythmless? practice-). Put your walkmans on, listen to a piece you like, while trilling on a table or on a digital keyboard switched off, then try to transfer this piece you are listen (and you like) to the trill. Check you are trillin 2323232.... speed up and down as you listen the piece. Trill without thinking and try to relax!. Do this a couple of days. Then do the trill on a real piano. Works wonder to me. (thanks Bernhard)

Hope it helps.
Ale

SORRY MY ENGLISH.

[donjuan]

I don't see need for such exercises.  For me, the best way is to hang your hand loosly above the keyboard and with your 2,3,4 fingers, vibrate quickly, moving them in a horizontal manner(forward,back,forward etc), NOT up,DownupDown.  this way, you get fast trills and will not get worn out.

[arigatuso]

Posted by: donjuan Posted on: Today at 5:49am
I don't see need for such exercises.  For me, the best way is to hang your hand loosly above the keyboard and with your 2,3,4 fingers, vibrate quickly, moving them in a horizontal manner(forward,back,forward etc), NOT up,DownupDown.  this way, you get fast trills and will not get worn out.  

Donjuan:

Can explain a little more your technique? I was doing up/down, not forward/backward.

Thanks,
Ale

[donjuan]

Donjuan:

Can explain a little more your technique? I was doing up/down, not forward/backward.

Thanks,
Ale

Hi Ale,
My technique is awkward for some- my teacher himself doesn't understand why I find it easier, but anyway... i disvovered this technique when I had to do a trill between Eb and F really quickly in Liszt's Tarantella.  I keep my elbow and wrist quite high off the keyboard, and relax my hand, letting it go loose.(VERY loose)
Use your right hand
I played Eb with only my 2nd finger.  I play F with the 3,4,5 fingers landing together.  Now I use  my wrist to quickly vibrate the 2nd finger forward, the 3,4,5 fingers back, and vice versa.  This is what I meant by forward/back.  usually it will be more comfortable if the wrist rotates side to side as well.  This way, I save energy and produce an even trill.  I actually discovered this technique when I injured my arm and couldn't put any stress on it.
Let me know if my technique makes sense to you.
donjuan  
     

[arigatuso]

Thanks donjuan! I will give it a try and i'll tell you the in a week.

Ale

More tips on playing trills?

[donjuan]

the kind of trill used depends on the style of music.  For example, in Chopin, do slow trills- accelerating gracefully to the finishing note.  In virtuosic music Eg. Liszt's Don Juan fantasy, play trills strong and brilliantly.  People make a big deal nowadays out of making sure the trills are well timed, with a certain number of repititions blahblahblah...don't worry about it- do what ever you have to do to make the music effective and emotional to an audience.
donjuan

[Antnee]

Mr. Chang has some advice on trills...

https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

-Tony-

[arigatuso]

Hi Tony? Did you try Chang's Routines? What about those exercise (parallel sets) he propose? I think it's a very good theory. And It's a good way of practice. But, I want to her comments from others.  Any advice on his sugestions?

Thanks,
Ale

[teo4]

Hi and harmony to all,
A biiiiig thanks to PianoStreet, all the repliers here and well, Chuan Chang! I'm glad Googling "faster piano trills" got me to this post too.
1) The link to Mr. Chang's book at membersaol.com didn't work for me. Here is a page of "Fundamentals of Piano Practice:
free online piano lessons - learn, teach piano" with a lot of good information for us:

https://www.pianopractice.org/

The book is there in PDF format and much more.

2) I join in asking if anyone else has used Mr. Changs book and techniques? I've printed boy.. a lot! Soon I'll get into it more - after I run it past 2 piano teachers I have but I wanted to share the updated link to the book, thank everyone here and poke anyone who has comments about Mr. Chang's book and techniques to let us know what you have found out. A great thanks to you in advance!
Love and light being,
Teo

[rmbarbosa]

Yes, I couldnt trill fast. But, with Mr. C. Chang and paralell sets, now it is quite easy. It works indeed. Please, try it.
Best wishes.
Rui

[scott13]

Do finger exercises to develop strength in the fingers so that a fast fluent trill is possible. I did 15 minutes of trills on all 5 fingers everyday for 3 months, and now i have a reasonable 4/5 trill on both hands, so it does work.

It's like anything, practice it correctly and slowly and speed will come

[nyiregyhazi]

Here is the general way I think our bodies should work (in three basic ways):  Firstly, all of us need to be reminded sometimes that our bodies (primarily the torso, shoulders, elbow) provide the basic power and weight for our playing.  

If that's the case, the only way to transmit the power effectively is to move the arm up and down on every note. That's far more effort and also involves major wastage in transmission. Trying to literally do this can often lead to a fixated wrist. It's far slower to move a large mass around than to use the fingers. The key is to know how to keep the rest of the arm released. Rotation can be a good way of adding power, but the fingers are vastly quicker. For a long time, I could scarcely play tremolos at all. Before I finally developed the finger actions, moving the arm was absolutely futile.

Now, throwing your weight around is great, but this degree of looseness I'm talking about doesn't apply to your fingers.  Sometimes the ends of your fingers should be made like stone.

Why not simply pull the keys with them instead? It makes collapse impossible. Trilling with the arm through a solid finger is an extremely advanced technique. For a person with slow trills, it's about the last thing I'd recommend. I say this from the experience of having spent most of my life using this model and doing very poor and slow trills. Only developing movement in the fingers led to improvement. Since then, arm trills are vastly easier than they were I devoted all my attentions to them. You need a foundation first.

[mrvladimirhorowitz]

To practice, do not use your wrist. just articulate every finger, very slowly. Buy the Hanon book of exercises and study them. Once you have practiced then use your wrist for extra speed, gently rotating. and RELAX If you need any more ideas, inbox me

[sephethus]

Hi Ale,
My technique is awkward for some- my teacher himself doesn't understand why I find it easier, but anyway... i disvovered this technique when I had to do a trill between Eb and F really quickly in Liszt's Tarantella.  I keep my elbow and wrist quite high off the keyboard, and relax my hand, letting it go loose.(VERY loose)
Use your right hand
I played Eb with only my 2nd finger.  I play F with the 3,4,5 fingers landing together.  Now I use  my wrist to quickly vibrate the 2nd finger forward, the 3,4,5 fingers back, and vice versa.  This is what I meant by forward/back.  usually it will be more comfortable if the wrist rotates side to side as well.  This way, I save energy and produce an even trill.  I actually discovered this technique when I injured my arm and couldn't put any stress on it.
Let me know if my technique makes sense to you.
donjuan  
      

How do you "vibrate" a finger?

[pianisten1989]

If that's the case, the only way to transmit the power effectively is to move the arm up and down on every note. That's far more effort and also involves major wastage in transmission. Trying to literally do this can often lead to a fixated wrist. It's far slower to move a large mass around than to use the fingers. The key is to know how to keep the rest of the arm released. Rotation can be a good way of adding power, but the fingers are vastly quicker. For a long time, I could scarcely play tremolos at all. Before I finally developed the finger actions, moving the arm was absolutely futile.
Why not simply pull the keys with them instead? It makes collapse impossible. Trilling with the arm through a solid finger is an extremely advanced technique. For a person with slow trills, it's about the last thing I'd recommend. I say this from the experience of having spent most of my life using this model and doing very poor and slow trills. Only developing movement in the fingers led to improvement. Since then, arm trills are vastly easier than they were I devoted all my attentions to them. You need a foundation first.

Why does everything have to be black or white? To use the whole arm for power and weight is not the same thing as using it on every note. And even if you do, the movement doesn't have to be the biggest movement you've ever done. For most people I know, it's enough to "follow" the hand with the arm to provide enough weight.
Though, I agree about not Only using the arm. If you do, it tend to get rather uneven. But I don't agree on "pulling" them either. What if you have to drill for a very long time, or have to play other notes at the same time (like third movement in Waldstein). Maybe I do it wrong (though, every teacher who has shown me how to pull do it the same way, so...) but when I pull with the fingers, the hand closes itself, or I get tensed in the rest of the fingers.

For me, it works way better if the other fingers help the two fingers that's trilling. Since all fingers aren't equally independent, it's stupid to try to practise them to become that. Like if I trill with 3-4, the 5th goes down with the 4th (ofc not all the way to the key, but as "support).

And why start with the small muscles? Yes, you need the foundation first, before you can trill. But why is that the fingers? If you start only with your fingers, it's a big risk to get very tensed.

[nyiregyhazi]

"And why start with the small muscles? Yes, you need the foundation first, before you can trill. But why is that the fingers? If you start only with your fingers, it's a big risk to get very tensed."

I didn't say the arm is supposed to be stiff. It's important to know how to ensure it won't be. But there are far more options than either  the arm providing the power or locking up. The irony is that if you try to source power from the arm it becomes MORE important to activate the small muscles, not less important. How can you channel arm energy through flaccid fingers in a trill? That is literally impossible- so it easily encourages fixed fingers. It's very hard to find an efficient way of using the hand to channel energy from above without fixation. That's why trying to source power from the arm can be a big risk. First the fingers need to be free to move- not forced to brace themself against large forces.

You say it's a big risk to start with the fingers, but I had severe tension problems from the absolute opposite. The key is to understand how to move the fingers without stiffening the arm- which is perfectly possible in the most literal sense. If you take energy from arm movements in trills, it's absolutely essential to activate the fingers or have them collapse. Experienced pianists may not perceive this happening but those who don't have the experience need to learn this first. However, when you start from the fingers, in no way is it necessary to stiffen the arm- assuming you go about it the right way. Both approaches required the same basic foundation. The worst finger trills you see are almost unfailingly accompanied by excessive arm pressures. When the arm is balanced in the right way (instead of pressing hard into the hand), the fingers can move pretty effortlessly.

[pianisten1989]

Well, I started with rotating with the whole arm, then making it smaller, and I've never had any problem with tension.
But, as most things in piano, there is not only one way.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well, I started with rotating with the whole arm, then making it smaller, and I've never had any problem with tension.
But, as most things in piano, there is not only one way.

Sure, but did you start with finger technique? I started with poor finger technique and rotating for trills compounded it and made me stiffer. Without a stable platform it can easily make things even worse. There are different things that can work- but some things tend not to work unless you're coming from a certain point. If someone trills sluggishly, trying to imagine the arm doing it all strikes me as an improbable aid. It's something I'd personally prescribe to someone who already trills quickly and efficiently but with little depth of sound- not advice that I'd expect to add speed to a sluggish motion.

It's alright if the fingers work anyway, but is telling somebody whose fingers aren't working well to do it even less and replace it with arm motions going to help? I think it's a very risky way of going about it?

[pianisten1989]

My whole technique was basically to use as little finger motions as possible. For a while, I actually thought that the goal was to not use the fingers at all, but only play with arm movement.

If you trill all the way back from the shoulder, so the whole arm rotate, one can drill quite fast. Though, I know now that that is far from the best way, but it did work...

[nyiregyhazi]

My whole technique was basically to use as little finger motions as possible. For a while, I actually thought that the goal was to not use the fingers at all, but only play with arm movement.

If you trill all the way back from the shoulder, so the whole arm rotate, one can drill quite fast. Though, I know now that that is far from the best way, but it did work...

For these things to be possible you need either a spectacularly sensitive hand, or a stiff one though. Fingers will buckle unless you either use extremely sensitive muscular actions or fixate them. The less prior experience the fingers have at moving sensitively, the more likely things are to need to become fixed. The easiest way to get your fingers able to balance the reaction from the keys with efficiency is to start by actually moving them- rather than be trying to keep them still in the face of oncoming forces.

"as little finger motions as possible"

as possible is the key part of the above. Such things are easily misunderstood by those who haven't started from enough for decent results to be possible.

[pianisten1989]

For these things to be possible you need either a spectacularly sensitive hand, or a stiff one though. Fingers will buckle unless you either use extremely sensitive muscular actions or fixate them. The less prior experience the fingers have at moving sensitively, the more likely things are to need to become fixed. The easiest way to get your fingers able to balance the reaction from the keys with efficiency is to start by actually moving them- rather than be trying to keep them still in the face of oncoming forces.

"as little finger motions as possible"

as possible is the key part of the above. Such things are easily misunderstood by those who haven't started from enough for decent results to be possible.

All my former teacher's (the one that taught me the arm technique) students was taught this way. I don't think all of us (at least 10 students) had some sort of super hand. he has now been some kind of guru here in sweden, because of his way to teach technique.

Ofc the fingers can be completely dead, any idiot understand that. Sorry if you misunderstood that.

But where does the author say that his/her hands are too relaxed, and needs to get a bit more stiff?

[nyiregyhazi]

All my former teacher's (the one that taught me the arm technique) students was taught this way. I don't think all of us (at least 10 students) had some sort of super hand. he has now been some kind of guru here in sweden, because of his way to teach technique.

Ofc the fingers can be completely dead, any idiot understand that. Sorry if you misunderstood that.

But where does the author say that his/her hands are too relaxed, and needs to get a bit more stiff?

Are you telling me you would be incapable of doing a fast finger trill- like the poster? Your fingers work. It doesn't matter whether anyone "understands" that the fingers cannot be dead. The point is that, whether you understand this or not, if you don't learn how to move them you're going to be very likely to end up stiffening them up- if they have to transmit something from the arm. Only a foundation in good finger movement prevents that need. Many pianists do not start from that foundation. What the fingers have to do to transmit arm pressures effectively and without stiffness is actually far more complex than a finger trill.

If someone can't do a fast trill (in general), it's obvious what the problem is. Either their fingers are not fast enough, or something is pressing down through the fingers and jamming them into the key, in a way that restricts their movement. Trying to transmit power from an arm that is already causing the hand to dig in hard is likely to be disastrous. It's actually stopping this needless pressure and activating the fingers that fixes it. That's why I objected to taking "power" from the arm- not releasing it. That's a totally different issue. When taken literally, drawing power from the arm is exactly what causes slowness and sluggishness- unless the fingers have first been trained just right. Taking "power" from the arm means pressing with the arm, which is exactly what usually causes sluggish trills in the first place.

[pianisten1989]

whatever... You've had my thoughts on it, and how I learned to trill, I didn't really count on that you'd agree with them.

[nyiregyhazi]

whatever... You've had my thoughts on it, and how I learned to trill, I didn't really count on that you'd agree with them.

I didn't say such things never work. However, I dispute the explanation- which can be dangerous for some when taken literally and done without supervision. Releasing and contributing power are two very different things.

I think it's important to distinguish between flow of "power" and "energy" in the figurative Buddhist style sense and the actual literal transfer of power. When people attempt these things in the literal sense all kinds of problems can arise.

[richard black]

Using the whole arm may be tempting but, quite apart from its intrinsic inefficiency, you'll be comprehensively scuppered when it comes to trilling with two fingers while doing other stuff with the remaining three. Just put the effort in to learning how to trill efficiently, with finger movements alone, and you won't regret it. Incidentally an important part of it is learning just how small a movement you can make - only a couple of mm really, once you find the balance point on the piano's action (unless your piano is a very cheap upright or badly out of regulation).