About steinway...

[yamaha2006]

Hi all,

Why everyones tells very bad things on Steinway....
Did all of you ever played on on of these grand or upright pianos?

I know that there are several famous brands like C. Becshtein, Fazioli,Blüthner...but
none of them should or must be compared with Steinway.

I know that in the 19th Century, Pleyel and other former names were very famous and build
high-quality instuments, but now this is not the case.
Pleyel is still good but not to be compared with Steinway..
Also Yamaha is good , even very good since I have played on a beautiful C5 ( I think or maybe it was a C7)
during an international Piano Contest.
But never to be compared to a steinway !!!

I have a Yamaha and I like it since it is better than many pleyels, Zimmermann, Schimmel, etc..(comparing to the same category).

BUT I have to admit that Steinway is the top of the piano !!!  The best one in the world is the Model D of course !

Why so many great pianists play on a Steinway?? Why all of them record CDs on a Steinway?
Why Glenn Gould wanted to amend his model B to play mostly Bach ?
why all Classical music Concert Hall do possess or hire Steinway???
Why is that and not yamaha (even the excellent C7) or C. Beschtein?

Just Look at the Statistics and you will see that Steinway is still a great name !!!

The sound is beautiful ! A yahama could procure high pleasure but not like the Steinway !!!

The German pianos are the best in the world and I think that thoses in this forum who say that Steinway is not good great loosers since they are jealous !
They cannot afford one of them, that's why they criticize wrongly this mythic brand !

The Best grand Pianos Brands in the world NOWADAYS (please do not compare TODAY and one century ago) are: Steinway, C. Beschtein, Fazioli, Blüthner and Bösendorfer !!!
Other brands are good but not so much !!!
Yamaha is good but because it is less expensive then everyones seems to like it...But price has not to be compared with quality !

Every real player will tell you that !! Not only the seller !

Thanks and Regards !

[saturation]

Its human nature to look down on the top dog.

Whether it is Microsoft today, IBM yesterday, GM etc., they all had their day.

The competitors of Steinway grands are very good too, but a good Steinway is an absolute joy, while a not so good one is a fine instrument and is the source of its criticism.

[yamaha2006]

Ok , So great pianos must have great criticism..? right?

But I likes all kind of pianos and I admit some of them are excellent !

but to my mind, some great names are famous not because marketing but because they provide excellent products.

Why people rather like BMW than Peugeot? Microsoft than other systems...? Guerlain than any perfumes? Stradivarius rather than other brands?

I think that everyone has the right to say they'd better like Yamaha, Kawai, even Samick ( which is horrible) but has not the right to say that Steinways are not enough good..

Whay no one speaks about teh fact yamaha is a mass producing Pianos?? about more than 200 000 a year they are made by computers and machines !!!

Yamaha is much like microsoft or "made in china" products rather than Steinway ( where ervy instrument is made by hand at 80%)

Rgds,

[gfiore]

 This all depends. Are you comparing NY Steinway with Hamburg Steinway?
 The NY instruments are quite variable in their quality and final preparation, whereas the Hamburg instruments have been reknowned for their superb quality control, and final prep.
 You are also uninformed when it comes to concert hall pianos. A vast majority have a Steinway concert grand, along with either a Bösendorfer, Yamaha, Balwdwin, Hamburg Steinway, and even a Fazioli.
 The pianos in recording studios also vary. Not every new recording is on a Steinway. Quite a few recordings are made on the Yamaha CFSlll and theBösendorfer 290 Imperial Marc-Andre Hamelin has made a few recordings on the Fazioli model 278.
 I don't thimk people are jealous, just particular about what piano sounds and feels right to them. I can afford a Steinway, but have a new Bösendorfer model 214 instead. Why? Because to me it's the best suited to my needs.Steinway is fine, but are not worth the price they command in comparison to many other tier one pianos out there.
 

[yamaha2006]

Bösendorfer is as expensive as Steinway I think?

I agree that Steinway are too expensive for some models but...why don't we see used Steinway so much?
Why everybody keeps their Steinway?
why upright pianos Steinway are excellent?

Regards,

[gfiore]

 Bösendorfer is more expensive than Steinway, but Bosie dealers will at least give up to 25% dicounts to their list prices.
 I don't know where you live Yamaha, but used Steinways can be found all over the place in the USA. There are many rebuilders in my area that restore these instruments all the time.

[mig]

Ok , So great pianos must have great criticism..? right?

But I likes all kind of pianos and I admit some of them are excellent !

but to my mind, some great names are famous not because marketing but because they provide excellent products.

Why people rather like BMW than Peugeot? Microsoft than other systems...? Guerlain than any perfumes? Stradivarius rather than other brands?

I think that everyone has the right to say they'd better like Yamaha, Kawai, even Samick ( which is horrible) but has not the right to say that Steinways are not enough good..

Whay no one speaks about teh fact yamaha is a mass producing Pianos?? about more than 200 000 a year they are made by computers and machines !!!

Yamaha is much like microsoft or "made in china" products rather than Steinway ( where ervy instrument is made by hand at 80%)

Rgds,

Hey, wait a second! First you say that Microsoft is the best, as are BMW and Stradivarius. Then, you say that Microsoft, and Yamaha, are lesser quality, "made in china" products. Part B: Comparison between Bösendorfer or Fazioli with Steinway is just like comparing Stradivarius with Guarneri. Both are good. When people think of quality violins, Stradivarius comes to mind first, just as Steinway. But, Paganini, probably the single most important performer in history, preferred the Guarneri over the Stradivarius. The same thing happens with pianos. There is no such thing as a "best brand", nor even a "best model". Pianos "where" living things some point, the individual properties of the wood differ on each instrument. As for me, I love Bösendorfer. The only time I played it was at the Bösendorfer showcase in NYC and I completely fell in love.

[yamaha2006]

I agree with Besendorfer is a great brand.

I just want to know why so many people are against Steinway??

I admit other brands are excellent but never see bad points on these points...As a result, whay Setinway is still attacked?

[yamaha2006]

Microsoft is the best software because no one else can do the same complexity !!!
But Microsoft has still many bugs !!!

However Steinway hopefully hasn't got (or a few...) any bugs !!!

Yamaha, Samick, Kawai, etc ; all the brands people have stated in this forum are made in china, Indonesia, Thailand !!!

Yamaha is a world-company, which rather like producing than making fines pianos. That's why with economic scale, they can sell them at a low price !!

Now how about the quality??? Steinway is at 80% handmade !!! And one year is needed to build one piano ! The woods are chosen and re-chosen !!!

Why people do not speak about that? Why don't they go to Hamburg manufacture to see the work done there !!!

Regards,

[gfiore]

 Yamaha, Steinway marketing has certainly worked on you. Steinway takes 10 months to produce a piano. The quality control in NY has improved during the past ten years, but it is no way on par of the others such as Bechstein, Fazioli, Blüthner, Grotrian, and Bösendorfer.
 NY  Steinway pianos arrive from the factory in basically an unfinished raw state, requiring at least two days of voicing and regulating prep.
 People know that the quality of the Hamburg pianos is superior to those of NY. The problem is the cost of getting one into the USA is quite expensive, and will often opt for a Bechstein or other make of piano.
 You also have the competition of the new Mason & Hamlin pianos, which are also manufactured with much better quality control than NY Steinway.

[iumonito]

I don't like Steinways.  I could afford one, but very much think they are not worth it.  Even if equal in price, there are more than half a dozen pianos I would rather own.

Even at their best, the smaller ones are just sorry pianos, S, M, L, simply unacceptable.

B has significant scale shortcomings.  It takes redesign to fix it.  The effort is better spent elsewhere.

C and O are, IMO, their most successful scales, but again, in terms of versatility, beauty of sound, tuning stability, and enharmonicity, there are several other pianos in their respective size class that are much more satisfying to me.

Ds are just so unispiring.  I am surprised, Yamaha, that you would choose your name, yet not prefer, for example, the CFIII, which in my opinion does everything better than S&S D.

I agree Steinway cannot be compared to the fine European brands.  Steingraeber, C. Bechstein, Bluthner, August Forster, even Bose (of which I am not a fan either), are simply not in the same class, they are significantly better.

In America Mason & Hamlin is significantly better.

For me Steinway is a second tier piano with a first tier price tag.  I like them just about the same as a Baldwin and less than a Kawai.

...and the Microsoft analogy I think is apt.  Everybody has it, but it is far from being good, and very far from being the best (did anyone say Macintosh).  Why does everybody play Steinways.   Ask Louis Lortie and Garrick Ohlsson.

Do you like Richter, Gilels, Bolet, Earl Wild, Cortot, Lipati, Demidenko?  They all favor pianos other than Steinway.

Maybe you can refresh my memory, what piano did Yundi Li play when he won the Chopin competition?

If Estonia was the one making claims to be the best piano, I would write pointing out they are not as well.

[yamaha2006]

Ok I understand;

I was talking about German Steinway.

So what do you advise for an upright piano: V125 /K132 Steinway (Hamburg) or Concert 11/8 (Beschtein ) and why??

Regards,

PS: I like Yamaha since i own one of course. and I admit that the CFIII is excellent but I have never played on one of these...

[andyd]

If you're thinking of buying a top quality upright, try the Bosendorfer, Bluthner model B, Bechstein concert 8, Ibach 132 and Steingraeber 138 and decide for yourself if any are better than the Hamburg Steinway K.

I'd take a concert 8 over a K.  My subjective choice.


There's an interesting thread here
https://www.armleg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139&highlight=yamaha+steinway&mforum=pianosinc
with observations on the projection qualities of Yamaha and Steinway concert grands

Andy

[yamaha2006]

Ok,
But what do you think of V125 for less budget people?
Other have the same price?

thanks

[invictious]

On a sidenote:

The steinway is very responsive, and the staccatos are very clean, but the ACTIOn is just PLAIN TORTURE!. I mean I can barely play even with my foot stamping on it.

[andyd]

"Ok,
But what do you think of V125 for less budget people?"

If I were you I'd try similar sized Bluthner (model A), Ibach (128)and Bechstein (124) and see what you think.


However in the UK, for the price of a V, you're likely to get a full size upright from Bosie, Bluthner, Ibach or Bechstein and have substantial change in your pocket. 
In my subjective opinion, Steinway uprights are well overpriced and any of the four makes named above are nicer to play. 
Other brands to consider are Steingraeber, Grotrian, Schimmel and Pleyel.  You can probably buy a Steingraeber 138 with the new 'special action' cheaper than the V. 


At this quality level it's not really about budget, it's about space and sound.
If you have the space, buy a grand; if you haven't, buy the upright sound you like.

Andy

[yamaha2006]

Ok,
But I saw the concert 11 from Beschtein much more expensive than the V125.

I have never tried Bluthner, what are their particularities?
I am affraid Ibach is not popular in France.
Why the action of Steinway is a torture?

Pleyel sounds good however i find Beschtein far better. Especially the Elegance Model.

Why do you think about Sauter? I tried one but did not find it better than my yamaha...

I have no place for a grand...It's a shame !

Thanks

[Axtremus]

yamaha2006,

You've played Yamaha, Pleyel, Zimmerman, Schimmel... and found that you like Steinway more them those other brands, that's based on your first-hand experience and that's good. Just don't presume that every one who has played other brands and found that they like other brands more are exhibiting sour-grape syndromes, and try not to make assumptions to compare brands/models that you have not yet experienced.

I assume you are not in the USA. In the USA, where I am, for the cost of a brand new Steinway upright, I can get a 6'-ish Japanese Yamaha or Kawai or Eastern European Petrof or Estonia, or a 7'+ Korean piano, or TWO 6'-ish Chinese pianos.

Shop around, play lots of pianos, and good luck finding your piano.

[andyd]

Yamaha2006,

Prices comparisons vary in different coutries.

I've never seen a Sauter or a Forster of any description, both of which are well liked.  Or a new Bosendorfer upright that is so well loved but rare.
I also had too little space for any grand so had to compromise and buy the upright I liked best.  I bought a Bluthner B - I liked the sound.
My bias being stated above and in previous posts, I sorted the full size uprights I played very roughly like this:

Bluthner, Ibach, Bechstein, (Bosie)
Steinway, Grotrian, Steingraeber
Schimmel, Pleyel
Yamaha, Kawai

The groupings do not reflect similarity of sound or touch.  You need to experience them.
A shop in London had the Bechstein, Grotrian, Schimmel and Pleyel uprights all together so I was fortunate to be able to do a direct comparison, and that's the order of preference I'd put them in.  So I agree with your Bechstein - Pleyel comparison. 


Andy

[yamaha2006]

Ok, tahnsk for these comments.

Well I live in france and brands like Forster or bösendorfer are not so popular..It's very very difficult to see a shop seeling one of them.

I have just played yesterday on the concert 8 Beschtein, grotrian Classic,Sauter, and pleyel p118.
All of them are better than my yamaha (but the comparison is not correct since my yamaha is less higher). The concert is excellent! Pleyel sounds good, even much better than Sauter (same size)...
Grotrian has a clear sound which i like and is not so far from beschtein. However the action of  Grotrian is not as good as expected.

I don't know Ibach...This is not popular in France.

Yes of course, In France, Steinway uprights are expensive but not as Beschtein. Concert 11 and 8 have higher prices than Steinway.
Grotrian is at a good price.

Just one more thing, When I talked about steinway, I mean Hamburg Steinway.

To andyd, How good is your bluthner B? Comparing to the concert 8, how it is?
In France, Bluthner B is 18 000 euros...Is it expensive comparing to other countries?

Thanks...

[andyd]

 'How good is your bluthner B? Comparing to the concert 8, how it is?'

The four makes Ibach, Bluthner, Bosie, Bechstein are all top tier one (see the Larry Fine book) pianos. 
Only you can decide by playing them.  Choosing between sound (and touch) is completely personal at this quality level.  Some makes do a mute pedal, some will do you a sostenuto pedal.

List price in UK all these makes are quoted at about £17,500 for a black finish.

Andy 

[yamaha2006]

17 500 is very expensive !!!

it's about 17000 euros in France....

And Steinway is not so expensive as in the US...

[kriskicksass]

I consider Steinway the best piano manufacturer, period. But I also recognize that Steinway's pianos are like spoiled children, and they take a long, long time to tame. If given the proper care, attention, and time, Steinway pianos are simply superior.

[Waldszenen]

Steinways have always been in the highest league and will probably never fall from that position, whether it's a Hamburg or NY model we're talking about (I personally prefer the former, though the NY models are beginning to grow on me).

But that's not to say Steinway is the ONLY good piano manufacturer. Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Fazioli, Stuart & Sons (little known outside Australia), Bluthner... they're all nearly in the same league. But I've found that none of those are as consistently good as Steinway. Nearly, but not quite there.

[yamaha2006]

Thanks for these comments.
I am happy that at least certain people do consider Steinway as among the best ones.
What I found illegitimate was when someone says Steinway is not good and at the same time says that Kawai/Yamaha is excellent !!!From my point of view that's is definitely false !

I know there are other good brands (and fortunately, this is a good thing to emulate the strong competitions between them).

[Axtremus]

What I found illegitimate was when someone says Steinway is not good and at the same time says that Kawai/Yamaha is excellent !!!From my point of view that's is definitely false !

Depends on how you qualify that statement. I have played many Steinway pianos that I consider excellent and I've experienced many "disappointing" Yamahas/Kawais, yet I'd also say that there are "some" Kawais/Yamahas that are "better" than "some" Steinways (the reverse is also true), and IMO that would be true for any two brand names among all the brands I've played.

[yamaha2006]

I agree and I thank you to be honest and just with this Brand since lot of people here fustigate this great name ...I think they're jealous , that's all !

I own a yamaha but I do know that my piano is not the best one...I will not tell that Yamaha is the best in the world or such things...

[saturation]

I do not think there is a perfect piano, nor is there a best of them all.  In the realm of beauty and esthetics, they are one into themselves.

Is there a most beautiful woman ever?  Most beautiful car, ever?

Why then, should there be the 'best' piano?

Clearly there are preferences, but there is no monopoly on beauty.  To argue for it is a waste of time.  It would be a treatise on esthetics but nothing more.

[gyzzzmo]

I have played on sjietload of grand piano's, to my opinion grand piano has best sound.
Though the uprights have nice sound too they become false very quickly.