Money and Piano

[paulmoony]

I know a lot of people just play for hobbies and fun,
but some people see many famous concert pianists and
decides to be like that. They have fun getting 10,000 dollars
if they're lucky in competitions, but they start to realize that it is friggin
hard and they can't live on playing piano getting like 25,000 a year.

Its kinda sad that people just play it for money, and when they
get to their 20s they start to look for jobs but no one wants them
And it's not like you can go to competitions forever to win 1st prizes.

Any opinions?

[pianistimo]

yes.  that's life.  but it didn't stop mozart, beethoven and many others.  was just listening to someone play an 'amato?' cello today (chopin's cello concerto?) and thought 'who would take the time to  learn to play on an antique cello - but the sound was astonishing.

classical musicians take ages to perfect things that most people don't appreciate.  but, for a few, they appreciate the ones that do appreciate and so the appreciation is worth more than money.  that's all i can say right now - because it's 1:16 am and i'm really wierded out that i stayed ont he computer so long on another thread about beethoven.  i must be one of those people that are driven by music alone and not money (otherwise i'd be sleeping).

[rc]

It would be nice to be able to make money doing music, so it could be a self-supporting obsession, and to be able to better share the fruits of our labours.

I'm not sure about the established path of competitions and touring, it seems to be a crowded market, and even to meet that goal comes with obligations to what the public wants.

I wonder where else there would be a demand for musicians? Movie soundtracks come to mind, and I'm a little curious about what it's like to play in resaurants or lounges.

I get the impression that for the most part classical piano is supported by amateur musicians, that there isn't really any demand for it by the public at large. So teaching is a good choice, and a good thing to get into for its own sake. Maybe, to make classical music accessible to the general public would work, which would come with its own artistic sacrifices.

We're all driven by the music. Anyone after money is going about it the wrong way if their learning piano ... But ya gotta eat, and I would like to do more with music than just a hobby for myself and whoever's in earshot.

[gruffalo]

i want to produce a career out of my enjoyment and passion for music, but i have vowed that whatever i do in life, i dont want to live a rich life. most of my money will be going to a charity that i will set up for poverty in Africa.

[plunkyplink]

How much does the average concert pianist make in a year?

[tompilk]

mmm... i dont know but im obsessed with listening to music. lol... i listen to it probably 7 hrs a day on average... and more if i can. And my school day takes from 7-4 including travel etc where I cant listen... i whistle to myself all the time...
It's a good hobby. i just wish i could play it but i dont think i have the talent. If i'd got into all this music before i chose my secondary school maybe i would have gone to a music school and things would be different.
I'd love to make it a job.. i'd be happy if i made enough money to live like I now do with my parents (im 15) and one's a teacher and the other works for a business - so we're not loaded, but comfortable...
Tom

[rc]

i want to produce a career out of my enjoyment and passion for music, but i have vowed that whatever i do in life, i dont want to live a rich life. most of my money will be going to a charity that i will set up for poverty in Africa.

Are you saying you would like to make as much money as possible, but not being greedy and materialistic?

It's a fine goal for sure. Though, I'd still call it a rich life, you can't help people with resources you don't have. Actually, a much richer life than as a money-collecting miser, to have extra income to use to help people.

Something else would be to keep an eye on your money. Once you're making some money, everyone will be wanting some of it. Anyone who pays their own way knows this, and on a larger scale, no story is more common than the superstars who are milked dry behind their backs. Leonard Cohen, at 70, has to make more albuns because his manager had made his retirement fund disappear.

[nervous_wreck]

van clilburn said "the only thing a classical pianist needs to make it, is a love for classical music to where he cannot live without it" who cares about money? i can live by myself on 25,000 a year... and if that means i can do nothing but practice all day long, i'm more than willing to do it. and there are those of us who get the big jobs with big symphonies, or make a solo carreer but those are just hte lucky ones.

[rc]

I did a quick search trying to find what kind of money professional pianists make, and found an interesting story: https://www.careerjournal.com/salaryhiring/industries/nonprofits/20050920-waldman.html

...About a lady who decided she didn't have the drive to become a professional pianist, and instead became the director of operations for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

And here's an excellent interview, done by a student looking for the inside scoop. McLachlan has some great answers here, my favorite is his final line "My advice is not to think about music as a career, but rather as a way of life. Live music to the full and then it will be your greatest source of strength!". https://www.murraymclachlan.com/faq.htm

[pianistimo]

thanks for the good read.  it was inspirational.  even the part about the horse eventually finding the cart, but the cart never finding the horse.  (at this point i'm going to be my own agent.  don't have the money to pay one).

[krittyot]

"As long as the money is good, I don't care about the acoustic in the hall" - Rachmaninoff.

[nervous_wreck]

"As long as the money is good, I don't care about the acoustic in the hall" - Rachmaninoff.

of course but rachmoninoff was more interested in composing, he only performed for the money of it. of course he would say something like that...

[gruffalo]

Are you saying you would like to make as much money as possible, but not being greedy and materialistic?

It's a fine goal for sure. Though, I'd still call it a rich life, you can't help people with resources you don't have. Actually, a much richer life than as a money-collecting miser, to have extra income to use to help people.

Something else would be to keep an eye on your money. Once you're making some money, everyone will be wanting some of it. Anyone who pays their own way knows this, and on a larger scale, no story is more common than the superstars who are milked dry behind their backs. Leonard Cohen, at 70, has to make more albuns because his manager had made his retirement fund disappear.

what i meant was, i want to give a high proportion of my money to charity. if i take the engineer path and i end up with an ok salary i will be a charitable person and do work for charity and give a bit of money, but if i end up becoming a concert pianist or somehow a rich buisnessman i dont want the riches for myself. i want to live the life i do now, with my parents (im still 17). i want to be comfortable, but not rich.

i understand the question that you have asked, but i cant yet answer whether my goal is to earn as much money as possible and then use it for charity, or just use the money that i land up with. i have too much to think about till June.

[Tash]

yeah but you wouldn't become a pianist for the money to begin with! it's like teaching, and everything else that doesn't involve working in some boring-ass workplace, you wouldn't do it if you wanted to get paid well.

[gruffalo]

yeah but you wouldn't become a pianist for the money to begin with! it's like teaching, and everything else that doesn't involve working in some boring-ass workplace, you wouldn't do it if you wanted to get paid well.

exactly. if money is all one thinks about, then music is the wrong choice. you either got a lot (highly unlikely) or very little (most likely).

[nervous_wreck]

rachmoninoff did it for the money..

[henrah]

rachmoninoff did it for the money..

But did he compose for the money?

[Tash]

yeah but he's probably one of the very few who could! if you're in demand, and composition isn't going to pay the bills alone, then go for it!

[lostinidlewonder]

To make money or to earn a living? You can make money fast winning competitions but you can't live off it. If you don't win then what do you eat? Doing concerts all over the world? Yes that is big money, but are you ready to do that? You need quite a large repetoire to take that challenge, and you also must know how to sell seats for your concerts. You also have to be good.

For me as a professional musician I don't categorise how I am a musician. Like I do not say, right I am going to do concerts all my life so I am a performer, or I don't say, right I am going to teach my whole life so I call myself a music teacher. The reality is that most musicians are both, but the intensity of which side you are working on is all different. I currently do about 1 month of peformance to 11 months of teaching and my own study but that has been as far as half and half.

If I need to raise money I will do a concert. That can get me $8,000AUD in pocket at the end of the night for big concerts(800+ people), smaller ones(200ish) can earn 1,500-2000 if the seats are sold. I could easily earn $50,000 a year on peformance alone, but it is a great deal of work. It is no longer music, it is business, and you have little time to think about your music and practice when selling seats for a concert. You see, selling seats has nothing to do with how well you play piano, its all buisiness and it is exactly like trying to sell a product, no difference. Except the product is yourself, and YOU must SELL yourself, that means giving people a taste of what you product is.

This is the reality for 99.99% of musicians. The other 0.01% who can use fame to project their career still a lot of hard work on their behalf is needed (although a lot get spoonfed with managers and have little idea how to do musical business.) The reality is that a musican has to balance their own personal musical study (which has nothing to do with money or fame, just their own desire to learn music) with a musical career. Fame is relative though. For example if I do a concert in my hometown people will come without me even trying, if I go to somewhere in... Russia where no one knows me, I will have a very tough time selling myself.

[krittyot]

of course but rachmoninoff was more interested in composing, he only performed for the money of it. of course he would say something like that...

Money is always the first priority for Rachmaninoff and this goes to Horowitz too.

[rc]

To make money or to earn a living? You can make money fast winning competitions but you can't live off it. If you don't win then what do you eat? Doing concerts all over the world? Yes that is big money, but are you ready to do that? You need quite a large repetoire to take that challenge, and you also must know how to sell seats for your concerts. You also have to be good.

For me as a professional musician I don't categorise how I am a musician. Like I do not say, right I am going to do concerts all my life so I am a performer, or I don't say, right I am going to teach my whole life so I call myself a music teacher. The reality is that most musicians are both, but the intensity of which side you are working on is all different. I currently do about 1 month of peformance to 11 months of teaching and my own study but that has been as far as half and half.

If I need to raise money I will do a concert. That can get me $8,000AUD in pocket at the end of the night for big concerts(800+ people), smaller ones(200ish) can earn 1,500-2000 if the seats are sold. I could easily earn $50,000 a year on peformance alone, but it is a great deal of work. It is no longer music, it is business, and you have little time to think about your music and practice when selling seats for a concert. You see, selling seats has nothing to do with how well you play piano, its all buisiness and it is exactly like trying to sell a product, no difference. Except the product is yourself, and YOU must SELL yourself, that means giving people a taste of what you product is.

This is the reality for 99.99% of musicians. The other 0.01% who can use fame to project their career still a lot of hard work on their behalf is needed (although a lot get spoonfed with managers and have little idea how to do musical business.) The reality is that a musican has to balance their own personal musical study (which has nothing to do with money or fame, just their own desire to learn music) with a musical career. Fame is relative though. For example if I do a concert in my hometown people will come without me even trying, if I go to somewhere in... Russia where no one knows me, I will have a very tough time selling myself.

Thanks for the insight Lost!

On the topic of performing<->teaching, I tend to think that our greatest value as musicians is the ability to teach, for me that is where it winds up to. But I'm also considering the thought that by getting too involved in teaching too early, one begins to close the door to performing by becoming booked solid... So by focusing on performing first, one can later have more experience to offer as a teacher. I've known people teaching who I'm sure have never been before an audience bigger than their cats...

So you say that you could possibly make a living from performance alone. Is there actually that much demand in your locale alone, or do you go around to other audiences as well?

I did another quick search here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15396.msg165817.html#msg165817
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,6544.msg65639.html#msg65639

Quite a bit of food for thought. It really does add up to a lot of work to market yourself, though I imagine a good amount could eventually be delegated out as well, it would still be best to know how to do it all yourself. I could see being able to put together concerts with other performers as well, to give some more variety to the concert. At some point the line has to be drawn between being a musician and a manager. Looking around my group of friends, there are a lot of people taking business management courses these days, to free up the musician to be a musician.

But what good is marketing until there is quality product to begin with. So  before anything else, good music and good presentation. I really like the idea of giving the audience some examples and explainations along the way, connecting with the audience is important and helping them to enjoy the music.

You mentioned playing for free at retirement castles, schools, etc. to sell tickets, and I suppose doing these sorts of things would also be a good way for a student to gain performance experience (practice making the music enjoyable for listeners).

[sevencircles]

Liberace earned a lof of money playing the piano but  he would hardly have made it today.

Unless he  tried to be some male-version of Alicia Keys but I would´t be surprised if he tried to do that if he was young today. His love for the money would propably lead him down a similar path if he was young today.