What do you think of U.S. public education?

[Bob]

Strengths and weaknesses.

Please tell us if you're in the U.S. or not.  If you're not, please tell what country you're from so we understand you're point of view better.

[instromp]

Strengths and weaknesses.

Please tell us if you're in the U.S. or not.  If you're not, please tell what country you're from so we understand you're point of view better.

Well im from the U.S. and i live in Laurel,Md and the school districts are set by countys and I live in Prince  Georges County. The Strengths I would say is that our school board wants the students to learn A LOT! And here comes the weak part, They try to shove a lot subjects down are throats and not give the students ample time to comprehend things and then try to give State test at the end of marking periods to see how a student fairs.

 Our school system is strict and tells the teachers what to teach and how long to teach it even if  the class as a whole still needs time to understand a Unit in a book, and units can be many chapters loooong ..This causes alot of weaknesses i think.But i guess that makes us study harder, which i know i spend alot of time doing for test and quizes every d*mn week . Very stressful since my mom is always on my back about my studies.

[abell88]

I'm in Canada but have family in the states. I think it varies tremendously from state to state, and probably even from town to town. My parents lived in Florida for many years and my mother was very upset with her fellow senior citizens who always rejected tax increases that would have been used to improve Florida's schools, which she thought were pretty bad.

Also, my sister in Delaware took her kids out of the public school system and home-schooled them, partly because they were being taught false history...they were told that the Pilgrims' first Thanksgiving dinner was given to thank the Indians (not God). 

[lisztisforkids]

What do I think of U.S. public education? -Not very much at all. This is coming from a 18 year old student.

Overall, not only are American schools chronically underfunded but are also taught by many people that shouldent be teaching. My last school can be compared to a country run by a Military Dictator, and this is fairly universal around the country. (once, me and my friends organized a 'wear a hat day' to protest a ban on hats, and the school called the local police)

 Homework is mostly a joke (at least where I come from, AZ), Its perfectly easy to get a High School Diploma without really learning very much at all.

My state recently implemented AIMS (Arizona insturment to measure stadards) tests. You have to pass the test which incompasses Math, Reading, and Writing, or you wont be able to get a High school diploma. The problem is that the several months prior to the AIMS test the only thing you learn is stuff thats on the AIMS. If you fail the test(and lots of people do) you retake it next semester, and the school provides you with special classes during your normal classes to prepare. Nobody really flunks the test, because the school goes to huge lebgths to make sure you pass it...

Another really bad thing about public school is that the classes are very large. My last schooll had 2,500 hundred kids in it. And the teacher to student ratio was about 28:1.

The major obstacle to graduating in public school here is not Academics: Its the social scene.

There are lots of really good schools out there (not in the major public school sytem).You just have to know were to look.  The Charter school sytem is really good, but those are few, (but theire growing from parent disgust at public education)..

Also I want to point out, College here is becoming increasingly more and more exspensive, ordinary people (like me) are just finding it harder and harder to get a higher education.

Overall, as Bill Gates said: "Ameircan High schools are obsolet". The downfall of quality education is the downfall of America as a world power.

To cure the American school sytem, it will take ,more than money. Only a huge cultural change and attitude can save american schools.

[pianistimo]

classroom size does matter.  i think that here in pennsylvania, despite the ever increasing numbers of students, there are quite a lot of really good teachers!  they get paid more, i think, than the average teacher wage.  the taxes are higher here.

i am really happy with our school district - but it is very competititive and if your child is gifted or a fast learner - it's a comfortable situation.  but, if you have a slower learner - they may feel teased or left behind somewhat because the schools don't have the wherewithall to deal with tutoring and repetitions.  also, timed testing is really difficult for slower learners - and they need to have separate testing requirements to make the grade.  my son, right now, is feeling the heat.  he 'gave up' for a while because he thought he was 'stupid' compared to a lot of his peers.  i tried to tell him that no one remembers your math tests in 10th grade - but it really got him down when he'd try and still get a bit lower grades than everyone else. 

what i find really strange is that he's a whiz on the computer.   more motivation related and seeing how it all fits into real  life.  i hope he gets motivated again.  he's been doing too many computer games and not his homework.  i nag him every day - but in the end, it will only be him helping himself.  i hope he 'gets it' over the summer and next year.  i've been trying to get him to exercise and get into a better frame of mind for homework.  he's pretty tired after the school day.  my daughter on the other hand, always gets her homework done.  guess that might be a natural thing somewhat - but very de-motivating for my son since she studies so much that she's a straight A student.  it's hard not to say 'why can't you study like her?'  but, usually i just say ' is it done yet?  go get it done.  nag nag'   

[prometheus]

Also, my sister in Delaware took her kids out of the public school system and home-schooled them, partly because they were being taught false history...they were told that the Pilgrims' first Thanksgiving dinner was given to thank the Indians (not God). 

Haha. You are joking right?


Education in general. It seems to me that education is underestimated both in Europe and in the US. In my country the education system is in decline thanks to wrong reforms; bigger schools and 'modern pedagogy', 'meaning learning without teachers', are to blame.

As for the US. I have been told that the high school system is way too insignificant. In most countries they have several different levels of secondary education. So basicly it will be no challenge for the talented students.

Then when these people reach college they have to work very hard.


The problem with education in general is that you can teach only one way and that every person needs teaching that is personalised. So this means that any system you come up with will fail to teach those that do not fit the system for the sole reason that they don't fit into the system.

[lisztisforkids]

.


The problem with education in general is that you can teach only one way and that every person needs teaching that is personalised. So this means that any system you come up with will fail to teach those that do not fit the system for the sole reason that they don't fit into the system.

True. Here instead of giving 'slower' students a secondary education, all of the school system is dumbed down to make room.

[pianistimo]

The problem with education in general is that you can teach only one way and that every person needs teaching that is personalised. So this means that any system you come up with will fail to teach those that do not fit the system for the sole reason that they don't fit into the system.

agreed. 

i noticed also a huge change in demeanor and attitude when my kids attended public school vs. homeschool many years ago.  i don't claim to have what it takes to teach all grades (even with tutors) as some moms do - but i respect those who want to take in moral goals as well as educational ones.  kids do tend to repeat what they see and their language, for one, is sometimes surprising after a few years in public school.  suppose that private might be different. 

[prometheus]

In my country homeschool is non-existant. It is illegal in my country because every child is supposed to go to school.

It seems you are referring to your children picking on behavior of other children. I don't know what to say about this. Certainly it is not an issue of education. Also, you can't protect your children from society.

I also wasn't really referring to fast and slow students, or even good and bad ones. I was talking about education styles. Ask any famed teacher about how one should teach. The person will answer that she or he doesn't really know. You have to try to keep everyone 'on board'. One student will react to long 'boring' lectures, another will want to solve exercises, another will want to do practical things, another might connect with practical applications, another will connect with questions that are unanswered, etc.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

just so you might have some reference and comparison, i'll try to give you a brief overview of how it is here in the philippines.

all public schools here are really bad EXCEPT for those "special" schools (Manila Science High School and Philippine Science High School, coz they're the best and can compete internationally). u see that's our problem, the budget goes only to those special schools. and the rest, well, like i said, really BAD. it's mostly the private schools which give the best education here.

prep here is 2 years (kindergarten), primary school is 6 years or in some, 7. and high school takes only 4 years. that's why in college, we are required to go thru 45 f**k*ing units of subjects in math, science, and technology, social sciences and philosophy, arts and humanities in our freshman and sophomore years (explains why even Music majors have to finish the bachelors for 5 years. so basically, at 17 or 16, we start college already).

actually, we kinda look up to the US system of education for high school since it would be better if we didn't need to take the 45 units of non-music courses (coz they take up our practice time), and instead, take only the arts and humanities subjects. social issues aren't a problem here, fortunately. but having good teachers and facilities is more of the issue.

[penguinlover]

I am a substitute teacher here in the US.  My opinion of the US public education?  I think we need to rethink it.  It was an experiment to begin with, and people don't seem to get it.  It is a failed experiment, and changes need to occur.  I think the major problem in our schools is the lack of disipline in the classroom.  The students show little or no respect for themselves our their teachers.  It is hard to teach in that atmosphere.  In most cases, the teachers' hands are tied.  There seems to be no discipline at home, and that carries out into the schools.  So the problem of funding comes in.  When you don't have enough money to buy adequate books, pay teachers, update the buildings, it is hard.  But in perspective, I bet we have it better than other places in the world, so I shouldn't complain. 

Me personally, if I had it all to do over, I would homeschool my five kids.
                                     Penguinlover

[johnny-boy]

An embarrassment. 

John

[abell88]

Also, my sister in Delaware took her kids out of the public school system and home-schooled them, partly because they were being taught false history...they were told that the Pilgrims' first Thanksgiving dinner was given to thank the Indians (not God).

Haha. You are joking right?

Unfortunately, no

[prometheus]

But in perspective, I bet we have it better than other places in the world, so I shouldn't complain. 

Uuh, the US is the richest country in the world. And you think one shouldn't complain when the US education system gets less good as that of Cuba because a country like Sudan, Afganistan or Iraq have no education to speak of at all?

The US does really poor in social issues like education and health care. The infancy death in the US is first world country unworthy.

The main problem with the US education is that it is a class based system. The rich get by far the best education in the world. The poor get first world country unworthy education.

But apperently the US mentality is not to care about this. "If those people weren't that lazy... american dream... they would have been rich also...blabla..."

Unfortunately, no

Yes very unfortunately. Everyone, even outside the US, know that Thanksgiving is a harvest feast. The origins is the native americans teaching the colonists how to live off the land. I mean thinks like corn were totally new to them. History says that these people would have died without the help of the natives.

It it kind of sad that, after a genocide of the native american peoples, estimated pre-Colombian people range between 8 and 145 million. The median of the people that died in the genocide is probably 20 to 40 million. And then you slander them in this way. That is kind of sad.

[lisztisforkids]

The main problem with the US education is that it is a class based system. The rich get by far the best education in the world. The poor get first world country unworthy education.

Thats not exactly true. The rich and the poor often go to the same school from lack of choices, unless you live in a bigger city were you can enroll your kids in a private school.

[pianistimo]

the usa is not the richest country in the world.  by recent estimates we are something like 3.5 billion in debt.  that comes down to about $28,000 per person (adult taxpayer?) that we owe - if i heard correctly. 

i think you are right, however, about a class system.  but, is it really fair that everyone be treated the same no matter if some people work harder. that's the conundrum.  there's not a lot of motivation to excel if you are not living in a free democracy that allows you land ownership rights, the right to defend yourself, the right of free speech, etc. etc.  - these ARE motivating to people.  otherwise you are slaves of the state.

what is missing probably is the link that wisdom has to education.  people are educated but we don't always have wise people governing us.  to me, wisdom and God go together.  for others, it may be simple common sense.  but you can see when something is working and when it's not.  we've had a lot of people in government that are corrupt.  they don't use what they have wisely and end up wasting taxpayer money.

not all the early americans were indian killers.  did you know that many that came to america, because of christian beliefs, treated the indians better and more equally.  but, they couldn't make up for the ones that didn't and treated the indians unfairly - by running them off to reservations.  in almost every government on earth there is unfairness and even genocide.  it is unconcionable and wrong.  but, we see now, the same happening to christians (and has happened down through the ages) - so we are not exempt from the same things.  beheadings are still taking place (in the 21st century!) so the bible is correct that even in the 'last days' there will be those that give their lives for God.

at the beginning of the migration of people from all over the world to america - the gospel came to the indians.  they prayed to 'the god of the sky' and 'the god of the river' etc. - but they never HEARD of the ONE true God.  perhaps some settlers were racist - but not all.  John Eliot, who came over in 1631, learned the language of the Massachusetts Indians and began to translate the bible into their tongue.  it took him nearly 30 years to do this.  his bible was one of the first books printed in america and many of his 'praying indians' learned to read in it.  eliot was a sweet, simple and generous man - he spoke up when people tried to sell the indians as slaves.

roger williams was another missionary to the indians.  he left a large colony in 1636 to set up his own colony.  usually the indians would kill a white man who lived by himself, because they often stole indian land.  but, this man was different because he treated the indians fairly.  he offerred to buy land from them instead of taking it.  many years he witnessed to the indians about Christ.

david brainerd was a bible scholar who had completed his education and could have become a pastor of a large new england church.  instead he left new england and decided to spend HIS LIFE preaching to the indians in the wilderness.  his hard work and poor conditions where he lived caused him to die when he was only 29. 

john wesley brought salvation tot he indians as well.  one indian told him, 'we would not be made christians as the spaniards make christians:  we would be taught before we are baptized.' the indians wanted to know what they were doing so they could accept Christ knowingly. 

sequoia (a famous cherokee indian who lived in north carolina) wished his people could read and write and after twelve years created the only known indian alphabet of this time.  other indian tribes had only spoken languages.  if they did write, they wrote in pictures.  sequoia created 86 symbols.  each stood for a sound in the cherokee language.  the new testament was translated. 

whites may have been unfair down through the ages - but not all.  william penn was similarly kind to the indians.  also, in sports and other areas, indians often excelled easily without the struggles of learning a new language.  jim thorpe was an indian from oklahoma that went to the olympics in 1912 .  he had amazing abilities in several different sports.  he was a talented baseball pitcher, set world records in track and field, and played football so well that his school was soon beating the best college teams in the nation.  he kept playing as a kicker past the age of fourty.

i realize the opportunities are still not as level as they should be for all races, but we try in the usa to be fair and give scholarships and all.  this does help many native americans (including alaskans) who otherwise might not go on to college.  in our modern industrial age - if God had allowed the indians to remain as they were - yes, they'd probably be healither, happier and live longer - but they wouldn't compete in today's society and be able to sustain their families.  hardly any system any longer is completely based on fishing or agriculture.  it CAN be done - but it is much more difficult and costly.  also, with the weather changing - it may be a problem for the entire world soon. 

ps in pennsylvania we still remember important indians and places that they named (and rivers).  i think we should continue to include indian history with american history.  it is important.  and, like the holocost- there are museaums dedicated to seeing pictures of the way things were before some white people became obsessed with owning ALL the land instead of sharing it and buying it fairly.  this is something that we cannot fix at this late point (the past history) but we CAN make things fair in the present.  i know in alaska there are government funds set aside for aspects of indian living and schools and water, electricity, and sewer systems put in.  so, for all the bad, some good did come.

[johnny-boy]

"the usa is not the richest country in the world.  by recent estimates we are something like 3.5 million in debt"

Make that over 8 trillion dollars and growing over 2 billion a day.

John

[m1469]

The problem is not the schooling, it's not the parenting, it's not the government, it's not the war, it's not society... it's not any one thing.  The problem is all of those things and everything put together, and the fact that humans are not perfect.  The problem is that everything needs to work in harmony together, for any one component to be operating intact and with optimum effecieny -- and conversely, for everything to work in harmony together, each component needs to be operating intact and with optimum effeciency.

Maybe everything needs to be rethought 


m1469

[pianistimo]

i never could keep my millions and billions correct.  now trillians?  wow.  well, i looked at that debt clock and was suddenly depressed.  it's all interest, right?  we're learning now that we aren't the richest country in the world.  maybe we're soon to be third world - who knows?  there are going to be some drastic changes coming, i suppose - and it won't all be gas.  the leaner and meaner usa will have to make some conscious choices about spending.  we're learning this in our own family.

[prometheus]

Uuh, 3,5 million? Haha...

https://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Plus, dept has nothing to do with it. The dept does drop the dollar value. But as long as (all) oil is payed in dollars this is not a problem. I have been told that Europe and the rest of the world will suffer under the US dept and the weak dollar.

Actually, it is very silly not to have dept from an economic point of view.

[pianistimo]

do you realize that if nations had no war - they'd probably have no debt.  or less of it, anyway.  so much is spent on defence.  for what?  if we use it, we hurt ourselves, too.  then environment (which sustains us) and it doesn't seem to matter 50 years after a world war that huge numbers of people died for the same but slightly different reasons we're fighting today.  why does there have to be war?

it would be nice if the education of the world included learning about other cultures in strictly positive terms.  if the world were to someday be at peace (which i think can only come by God) there wouldn't be the heavy anxiety that pervades each day.  what's going to happen today?  we COULD focus on the environment more (spending more money cleaning it up and taking care of it) - and our REAL future which is dependent on the environment and agriculture and fishing (even though we think we live by money).

[johnny-boy]

Yeah, I have to laugh when people save a war will help the economy. That's just plain balderdash. The bill has to eventually be paid - that's the bottom line. War just creates more debt.

John

[prometheus]

Well, that is a question...

I know some things about the history of war. Humans always wage war. It is so strange. No one wants war. Humans have a hard time killing other humans (really this is true, only about 35% of the soldiers will actually kill). But for some reason the natural thing of people is to wage war.

Maybe the above statement should be changed. It is not people that wage war. It are states, kingdoms, empires, city-states, nations, that wage war.

Well, if the US stopped buying weapons the arms industry in the US will be annihilated. The people that run the arms industry also run the government. So this will not happen.

Furthermore, if you read a book like The Art of War by Sun Tzu or The Prince by Machiavelli, both famous books that are based on human history and they natural inclination towards war and books that are read by the people that run any government, you will learn that war is considered a normal tool of a government. If you have no army you will be bullied in the international arena.

[pianistimo]

but think about the bread lines in WWII and the costs to help american soldiers (and i'm sure the other nations to rebuild and recover mentally and physically) recover.  my grandfather never recovered and was in a sanitorium for many years.  it is not just the cost of the war , but health costs, mental costs,e tc.  costs to families (especially if the soldier doesn't return).

it's just wishful thinking, i guess, but i can't help thinking that women aren't as likely to kill either.  what if they sent all the women to fight and they ended up trading recipies or something.  i think it would be nice to go off to a war with something other than weapons of mass destruction.  say if people were only allowed to use toothpicks.  then it would be just showing people how human they are.

can't help thinking of that james bond movie where the guy says 'i'm in-veenceble' and then gets blown up.

[lisztisforkids]

the usa is not the richest country in the world.  by recent estimates we are something like 3.5 billion in debt.  that comes down to about $28,000 per person (adult taxpayer?) that we owe - if i heard correctly. 

i

 

Uhh... Congress just approved a debt of 9 trillion dollars... And your homeschooling your kids?

[pianistimo]

well the numbers get mixed up in my head and don't really settle into a logical quantity.  i've always had this problem.  maybe if i actually saw the dollars stacked up somewhere.  btw, i haven't been homeschooling for years (good thing, huh).  i taught them to read.  that seemed quite important to me at the time.  now, i'm sort of a blah parent.  i help with homework when wrestled to the ground.  seriously, i do ask my kids if they need help with homework - but some of the math is beyond me now.  i hate being stymed by 6th or 10th grade homework.  my daughter is an honors student!  she's the one in sixth grade.

[prometheus]

Yes. It is also strange from a pure financial point of view. War could be good for the economy or the national treasury. Alexander the Great assassed a tremendous wealthy by looting Persepolis.

The roman empire got its weath from all the captured slaves.

But war is very costy. It has always been this way. So one needs to be able to make a lot of money to pay for the army.

But today it is not really clear how war will profit a country in the modern world. Maybe Orwell was right about this topic. That war is there to get rid of the surplus production of the state.

I wonder if all those historical leaders want to wage war to become a famous war hero in the history books, and thus become immortal.

[pianistimo]

my son thinks the safest way to wage war is in the sky.  he refuses to think of fighting a war on land.  but, that's the scary part - we might soon have drones that don't really know where they are going - and maybe hit some targets that aren't on the map.  can you imagine the fear of being chased by pilotless planes.  i don't want to think about it. 

to me, the beauty of flying is to enjoy looking around.  not where to drop a bomb.  suppose that is an easy way to fight, but it doesn't seem right (even though we are fighting terrorism).  i just wish that EVERYONE would stop in their tracks and suddenly become NICE.  how to do this?  drop bibles everywhere instead of bombs.  and, iranians could drop the koran on us.  of course, from a certain distance a bible or a koran could possibly kill a person.  then you could say - 'well, i was just trying to be nice.'

[prometheus]

People can be nice and kill each other. That's not the point. It is the nature of institutions of power to wage war. Not really the nature of humans themselves.


As for technology. That scares me. War would not be that bad with swords and spears. I wouldn't have that much problems with fighting a war with swords and spears. I am a male and my natural instincts say that fighting with swords and spears can be something honorable.

But today, with our technology, we can no longer have war. This is what both Einstein and Russell said. They both called for the mankind to abandon war altogether. We have grown up.

[johnny-boy]

"But today, with our technology, we can no longer have war. This is what both Einstein and Russell said"

Boy, were they wrong!

John

[prometheus]

The chance of nuclear war, or a nuclear strike and either accidental or not, is estimated to be quite large.

[musik_man]

The big problem with the US education system today as I see it is a lack of accountability of teachers.  As anyone who's gone through the system knows for every good teacher who enjoys their work, there are at least 2 or 3 who are either rank incompetent or dislike children.  My mom teaches 5th grade science.  One of her co-workers was very nearly put on suspension because she didn't pass the math test for certification.  This test wasn't differential equations or 3-d calculus.  It was f*cking pre-algebra, and she could take it as many times as she wanted.  I can barely believe that someone could teach for decades and not know stuff like fraction multiplication and long division.  The ironic thing is that a local news station had done a story about her a few months back about how the evil State Legislature's new certification requirements were driving out experienced teachers like her.   The US education is f*cked up and I don't think it has all that much to do with money(by the end of Bush's term federal education spending will have more than doubled.)  I think the only practical solution is to implement school vouchers.  Once public schools have to compete, it'll be hard to hide their utter failure.

Prometheus, the US has such a high infant mortality rate because the US counts extremely premature babies in their figures, and premature babies obviously have a high mortality.  As for the 'genocide' of Indians, Europeans deserve condemnation for slavery and mistreatment of them, but blaming them for disease is stupid.  It's not like the Europeans secretly conspired to make Native American immune systems weak to Old World diseases.

Pianistimo, you're looking at debt as absolute.  You need to consider it relative to the US's status.  As a percentage of GDP our debt is nothing unusual.  Italy's debt is about 150% of their GDP.  Think of it this way.  If some guy earns minimum wage and owes 20,000, he's in dire straits.  If a surgeon pulling in 300k owes 20k, it's not a big deal.

BTW I read that 1/4 of American soldiers who experience combat in WWII didn't fire the weapons because they didn't want to kill.

[prometheus]

So when the US comes with these reports the numbers of the US are measurements of different things? That seems to be strange to me. I am going to look into this.


As for the numbers about soldiers in WWII not shooting. I am sure that number has to be higher. Today they can program a soldier to shoot as a reflex. This results into more mental problems when the soldier returns.

[tac-tics]

he's been doing too many computer games and not his homework.  i've been trying to get him to exercise

You should look into Dance Dance Revolution for him. While it might not help so much on the homework front, it is one of the few forms of fun exercise 

[musik_man]

Problems of definition and measurement, however, hamper cross-national comparisons of health statistics. Alternative measures of infant mortality may provide better information but cannot completely compensate for differences among countries in the overall rates of reporting of adverse pregnancy outcomes. For example, very premature births are more likely to be included in birth and mortality statistics in the United States than in several other industrialized countries that have lower infant mortality rates.

From a Congressional Budget Office report.  It makes sense to me, since I can't see Singapore(with ~2/1000) providing better health care than the US(~6/1000.)

https://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=6219&sequence=0

As for the numbers about soldiers in WWII not shooting. I am sure that number has to be higher. Today they can program a soldier to shoot as a reflex. This results into more mental problems when the soldier returns.

Well, only 1/3 of US troops saw combat action.  I'm guessing they tried to screen out squeamish people and put them into non-combat areas.

[mycrabface]

I'm from Singapore.. I used to think US education was better and more relaxed than Spore's, because in my friend's school, there's this boy from China who went to America to study. He migrated to Spore and is now having a hard time coping with subjects. He used to ace in US tests but is now a borderline passer for Spore tests. After I read the 2nd post, I'm not too sure whose syllabus is harder, but one thing is for sure: Americans are more open-minded because of their education system. In my opinion, their chapters are probably alot easier than ours and also, we have many subjects to cope with. My current subjects are A maths, E maths, bio, chem, phy, english, chinese, social studies, art and history (art ain't easy, mind you). One upside about US education systems is that they are far more relaxed, allowing students to better balance their lifestyles, make time for other things. This too enables them to put more focus on the arts because where I come from, we put priority on science (that's why I have triple science, not triple art) as Spore needs more stable jobs to build its economy before it can relax a little. That's why we have to be brainy nerds and not artistic freaks (whoops no offense).

I might be wrong about which education system is more relaxed, but then again, this is only my view.