a genralized question on male vocal range

[clef]

Well...

Although it often says at many encyclopedias that a bass range is that from around F up to an Eb...  most Bass 2s at our school would shoot me if I asked them to sing a D.  Is this just because they haven't found the potential of their range?  D above middle C, seems to be high even for half the tenors...  and with the top of the tenor range, I see people say it is a high C.... that seems to me to be the same as an average top note for an alto, is this in fallsetto?  what is the highest note in cheast voice for tenor... I'd say only half of the tenors at my school could get G comfortably, just about all could get it after warming up... but genrally anything above an E as a top note is percieved as tenor, and anything under D as top note is percieved as Bass, baritone is in between.  This isn't at all compatiable with what I have read and its left me somewhat irratable....

[abell88]

I think the encyclopedias are speaking of idealized or professional voice ranges. You're right, amateur singers (even very good ones) usually have smaller ranges.  I think Pavarotti could hit a high C in full voice when young, but not anymore...tenors wear out the quickest of all voices due to the demands placed on them; they are usually singing in quite a high tessitura. 

[Tash]

there are guys in our uni choir who can sing a low C. and the bass's are expected to sing pretty high up sometimes, can't remember specific notes, not being a bass and all, but they managed it after having a small whinge. the tenors i think get their top around A, us altos are expected an E, though we got an F once in durufle's requiem. but yes, i reckon anything written should be disregarded because it's a bit individual

[clef]

there are guys in our uni choir who can sing a low C. and the bass's are expected to sing pretty high up sometimes, can't remember specific notes, not being a bass and all, but they managed it after having a small whinge. the tenors i think get their top around A, us altos are expected an E, though we got an F once in durufle's requiem. but yes, i reckon anything written should be disregarded because it's a bit individual

yeah that looks about right to me...

In full choir tenors go to a G, but in chamber choir tenor 1s have to hit a high Bb in one of the songs...   (falsetto galore...)

[pianistimo]

my husband takes at least a half hour to warm up (usually in the shower) by singing falsetto first, i think.  he uses something like eww-eee-eww-eee  and sounds like he is calling pigs or something.  but, by the time he is out of the shower, his upper range is really good.  maybe it's all in the warming up?  and, to warm up every day and find your own 'method' of getting the best tones in that upper range.

i think he starts with the highest notes he can get and moves down and then starts all over again.  it's funny, because i don't really notice and listen hard to his warming up.  usually the door is shut. 

[abell88]

    A  Young Person's Guide to the Chorus

    In any chorus, there are  four voice parts: soprano, alto, tenor, and bass. Sometimes these are divided  into first and second within each part, prompting endless jokes about first  and second basses. There are also various other parts such as baritone,  countertenor, contralto, mezzo soprano, etc., but these are mostly used by  people who are either soloists, or belong to some excessively hotshot  classical a cappella group (this applies especially to countertenors), or are  trying to make excuses for not really fitting into any of the regular voice  parts, so we will ignore them for now. Each voice part sings in a different  range, and each one has a very different personality. You may ask, "Why should  singing different notes make people act differently?", and indeed this is a  mysterious question and has not been adequately studied, especially since  scientists who study musicians tend to be musicians themselves and have all  the peculiar complexes that go with being tenors, french horn players,  timpanists, or whatever. However, this is beside the point; the fact remains  that the four voice parts can be easily distinguished, and I will now explain  how.
     
    THE  SOPRANOS  are the ones who sing the highest, and because of this they think they rule  the world. They have longer hair, fancier jewelry, and swishier skirts than  anyone else, and they consider themselves insulted if they are not allowed to  go at least to a high F in every movement of any given piece. When they reach  the high notes, they hold them for at least half again as long as the composer  and/or conductor requires, and then complain that their throats are killing  them and that the composer and conductor are sadists. Sopranos have varied  attitudes toward the other sections of the chorus, though they consider all of  them inferior. Altos are to sopranos rather like second violins to first  violins - nice to harmonize with, but not really necessary. All sopranos have  a secret feeling that the altos could drop out and the piece would sound  essentially the same, and they don't understand why anybody would sing in that  range in the first place - it's so boring. Tenors on the other hand, can be  very nice to have around; besides their flirtation possibilities (it is a  well-known fact that sopranos never flirt with basses), sopranos like to sing  duets with tenors because all the tenors are doing is working very hard to  sing in a low-to-medium soprano range, while the sopranos are up there in the  stratosphere showing off. To sopranos, basses are the scum of the earth - they  sing too damn loud, are useless to tune to because they're down in that low,  low range - and there has to be something wrong with anyone who sings in the F  clef, anyway.
     
    THE  ALTOS are  the salt of the earth - in their opinion, at least. Altos are unassuming  people, who would wear jeans to concerts if they were allowed to. Altos are in  a unique position in the chorus in that they are unable to complain about  having to sing either very high or very low, and they know that all the other  sections think their parts are pitifully easy. But the altos know otherwise.  They know that while the sopranos are screeching away on a high A, they are  being forced to sing elaborate passages full of sharps and flats and tricks of  rhythm, and nobody is noticing because the sopranos are singing too loud (and  the basses usually are too). Altos get a deep, secret pleasure out of  conspiring together to tune the sopranos flat. Altos have an innate distrust  of tenors, because the tenors sing in almost the same range and think they  sound better. They like the basses, and enjoy singing duets with them - the  basses just sound like a rumble anyway, and it's the only time the altos can  really be heard. Altos' other complaint is that there are always too many of  them and so they never get to sing really loud.
     
    THE TENORS are spoiled. That's all  there is to it. For one thing, there are never enough of them, and choir  directors would rather sell their souls than let a halfway decent tenor quit,  while they're always ready to unload a few altos at half price. And then, for  some reason, the few tenors there are are always really good - it's one of  those annoying facts of life.. So it's no wonder that tenors always get  swollen heads - after all, who else can make sopranos swoon? The one thing  that can make tenors insecure is the accusation (usually by the basses) that  anyone singing that high couldn't possibly be a real man. In their usual  perverse fashion, the tenors never acknowledge this, but just complain louder  about the composer being a sadist and making them sing so damn high. Tenors  have a love-hate relationship with the conductor, too, because the conductor  is always telling them to sing louder because there are so few of them. No  conductor in recorded history has ever asked for less tenor in a forte  passage. Tenors feel threatened in some way by all the other sections - the  sopranos because they can hit those incredibly high notes; the altos because  they have no trouble singing the notes the tenors kill themselves for; and the  basses because, although they can't sing anything above an E, they sing it  loud enough to drown the tenors out. Of course, the tenors would rather die  than admit any of this. It is a little-known fact that tenors move their  eyebrows more than anyone else while singing.
     
    THE BASSES sing the lowest of anybody.  This basically explains everything. They are stolid, dependable people, and  have more facial hair than anybody else. The basses feel perpetually  unappreciated, but they have a deep conviction that they are actually the most  important part (a view endorsed by musicologists, but certainly not by  sopranos or tenors), despite the fact that they have the most boring part of  anybody and often sing the same note (or in endless fifths) for an entire  page. They compensate for this by singing as loudly as they can get away with  - most basses are tuba players at heart. Basses are the only section that can  regularly complain about how low their part is, and they make horrible faces  when trying to hit very low notes. Basses are charitable people, but their  charity does not extend so far as tenors, whom they consider effete poseurs.  Basses hate tuning the tenors more than almost anything else. Basses like  altos - except when they have duets and the altos get the good part. As for  the sopranos, they are simply in an alternate universe which the basses don't  understand at all. They can't imagine why anybody would ever want to sing that  high and sound that bad when they make mistakes. When a bass makes a mistake,  the other three parts will cover him, and he can continue on his merry way,  knowing that sometime, somehow, he will end up at the root of the chord. 
     

[pianistimo]

abel88,  that was really amusing and true to life!  all the choirs i've been in - each of the sections is EXACTLy like that. how did you write this so succinctly?  i laughed at many things - but the 'basses hate tuning the tenors' made me laugh the most. it's so true in many choirs though.  the tenors wait to hear the note and then come in 1/2 second later.

[clef]

    A  Young Person's Guide to the Chorus

    In any chorus, there are  four voice parts: soprano, alto, tenor, and bass. Sometimes these are divided  into first and second within each part, prompting endless jokes about first  and second basses. There are also various other parts such as baritone,  countertenor, contralto, mezzo soprano, etc., but these are mostly used by  people who are either soloists, or belong to some excessively hotshot  classical a cappella group (this applies especially to countertenors), or are  trying to make excuses for not really fitting into any of the regular voice  parts, so we will ignore them for now. Each voice part sings in a different  range, and each one has a very different personality. You may ask, "Why should  singing different notes make people act differently?", and indeed this is a  mysterious question and has not been adequately studied, especially since  scientists who study musicians tend to be musicians themselves and have all  the peculiar complexes that go with being tenors, french horn players,  timpanists, or whatever. However, this is beside the point; the fact remains  that the four voice parts can be easily distinguished, and I will now explain  how.
     
    THE  SOPRANOS  are the ones who sing the highest, and because of this they think they rule  the world. They have longer hair, fancier jewelry, and swishier skirts than  anyone else, and they consider themselves insulted if they are not allowed to  go at least to a high F in every movement of any given piece. When they reach  the high notes, they hold them for at least half again as long as the composer  and/or conductor requires, and then complain that their throats are killing  them and that the composer and conductor are sadists. Sopranos have varied  attitudes toward the other sections of the chorus, though they consider all of  them inferior. Altos are to sopranos rather like second violins to first  violins - nice to harmonize with, but not really necessary. All sopranos have  a secret feeling that the altos could drop out and the piece would sound  essentially the same, and they don't understand why anybody would sing in that  range in the first place - it's so boring. Tenors on the other hand, can be  very nice to have around; besides their flirtation possibilities (it is a  well-known fact that sopranos never flirt with basses), sopranos like to sing  duets with tenors because all the tenors are doing is working very hard to  sing in a low-to-medium soprano range, while the sopranos are up there in the  stratosphere showing off. To sopranos, basses are the scum of the earth - they  sing too *** loud, are useless to tune to because they're down in that low,  low range - and there has to be something wrong with anyone who sings in the F  clef, anyway.
     
    THE  ALTOS are  the salt of the earth - in their opinion, at least. Altos are unassuming  people, who would wear jeans to concerts if they were allowed to. Altos are in  a unique position in the chorus in that they are unable to complain about  having to sing either very high or very low, and they know that all the other  sections think their parts are pitifully easy. But the altos know otherwise.  They know that while the sopranos are screeching away on a high A, they are  being forced to sing elaborate passages full of sharps and flats and tricks of  rhythm, and nobody is noticing because the sopranos are singing too loud (and  the basses usually are too). Altos get a deep, secret pleasure out of  conspiring together to tune the sopranos flat. Altos have an innate distrust  of tenors, because the tenors sing in almost the same range and think they  sound better. They like the basses, and enjoy singing duets with them - the  basses just sound like a rumble anyway, and it's the only time the altos can  really be heard. Altos' other complaint is that there are always too many of  them and so they never get to sing really loud.
     
    THE TENORS are spoiled. That's all  there is to it. For one thing, there are never enough of them, and choir  directors would rather sell their souls than let a halfway decent tenor quit,  while they're always ready to unload a few altos at half price. And then, for  some reason, the few tenors there are are always really good - it's one of  those annoying facts of life.. So it's no wonder that tenors always get  swollen heads - after all, who else can make sopranos swoon? The one thing  that can make tenors insecure is the accusation (usually by the basses) that  anyone singing that high couldn't possibly be a real man. In their usual  perverse fashion, the tenors never acknowledge this, but just complain louder  about the composer being a sadist and making them sing so *** high. Tenors  have a love-hate relationship with the conductor, too, because the conductor  is always telling them to sing louder because there are so few of them. No  conductor in recorded history has ever asked for less tenor in a forte  passage. Tenors feel threatened in some way by all the other sections - the  sopranos because they can hit those incredibly high notes; the altos because  they have no trouble singing the notes the tenors kill themselves for; and the  basses because, although they can't sing anything above an E, they sing it  loud enough to drown the tenors out. Of course, the tenors would rather die  than admit any of this. It is a little-known fact that tenors move their  eyebrows more than anyone else while singing.
     
    THE BASSES sing the lowest of anybody.  This basically explains everything. They are stolid, dependable people, and  have more facial hair than anybody else. The basses feel perpetually  unappreciated, but they have a deep conviction that they are actually the most  important part (a view endorsed by musicologists, but certainly not by  sopranos or tenors), despite the fact that they have the most boring part of  anybody and often sing the same note (or in endless fifths) for an entire  page. They compensate for this by singing as loudly as they can get away with  - most basses are tuba players at heart. Basses are the only section that can  regularly complain about how low their part is, and they make horrible faces  when trying to hit very low notes. Basses are charitable people, but their  charity does not extend so far as tenors, whom they consider effete poseurs.  Basses hate tuning the tenors more than almost anything else. Basses like  altos - except when they have duets and the altos get the good part. As for  the sopranos, they are simply in an alternate universe which the basses don't  understand at all. They can't imagine why anybody would ever want to sing that  high and sound that bad when they make mistakes. When a bass makes a mistake,  the other three parts will cover him, and he can continue on his merry way,  knowing that sometime, somehow, he will end up at the root of the chord. 
     

LOL oh thats fantastic

[nomis]

I'm a bass, 19 years old and I can sing from C1-E3, though the E3 really has to be squeezed out.

[gruffalo]

im a baritone, im 17 years old (so my voice has more maturing to undergo). im going in to Opera as a proffesion. my current range is E below the C (-1 octave from middle C) . to a G above middle C. i'll make that first note more clearer, go from middle C down an octave, then the F below that.

[abell88]

how did you write this so succinctly?

Sorry, wish I'd made it up, but it came as a forward from a musical friend yesterday and I immediately thought of this thread.

[Tash]

that's hilarious i can totally relate to it- yesterday we were having (us altos) a competition with the tenors to see who could articulate their 'rattle' and 'quicker' better- sadly they won, but hey there's only 3 of them and like 50 of us so no fair! altos are the coolest (no bias there)!!

[invictious]

No, it is just amazing and freaks me out that Pavarotti can sing the High C (Tenor C) with his chest voice, just thinking of that just makes me think, how is that even possible?
I consider myself a baritone, with a range of an F two octaves below middle C to the middle E(SQUEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!!!!!) I am trying to force out to an A, but it becomes falsetto-ish

I don't want to become a bass, perhaps a bari-tenor will do too.

[Motrax]

In my choir, I'm a bass 2 (more because I can't sing high notes rather than being able to sing low notes). I can passably sing from Eb below the bass clef staff to the Eb (and sometimes E) above the staff. Sometimes I can hit a low D, but only in the morning. My notes above middle C sound quite terrible (I'm a pianist, not a vocalist!), but I've gotten better since I start chorus.

That essay is excellent, but I do have one issue with it. Although basses like singing in loud, booming voices, I don't think it ever drowns out the other parts because they're all so high in the stratosphere. It's the sopranos who really drown everyone else out (and too bad, because they're rarely in tune  ). I sang in Verdi's Requeim last year, and the soprano soloist, Sharon Sweet (you may have heard of her), drowned out not only the entire chorus, but the orchestra too.

[mikey6]

right what you want, and let the singers figure it out.  Hell, in school choirs, the teacher had bass 2's singing the tenor lin in the agnus dei of the Faure Requiem (high f's!).  Mahler obviously didn't care - the 8th symphony has a bass 2 part ranging from low Bb (!) to top G (ie. tenor range)\

[abell88]

right what you want, and let the singers figure it out.

Yes and no! Write what you want if you're writing for professionals...but if you ask amateurs to sing notes that are uncomfortably out of their range they're likely to sound bad and may strain/damage their voices.

[Tash]

there's an honours student at uni who's composing a work for the burgundian choir, and he was like so what is everyone's range, and the director's like well they all pretty much have your average human range for their parts. and he's like anything at all extreme? and she's like well there is one girl who can sing like 3 octaves about middle c...man that girl has such a high voice and she lets everyone in the music corridor know it!! (haha you always know when she's around, stuck up sop 1's!)

[gruffalo]

No, it is just amazing and freaks me out that Pavarotti can sing the High C (Tenor C) with his chest voice, just thinking of that just makes me think, how is that even possible?
I consider myself a baritone, with a range of an F two octaves below middle C to the middle E(SQUEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!!!!!) I am trying to force out to an A, but it becomes falsetto-ish

I don't want to become a bass, perhaps a bari-tenor will do too.

a good tenor will pull off a C with chest voice. im a baritone too, i can comfortably sing a G (above middle C) comfortably. i dont quite understand what you said there, you can sing an E, but you try and force out an A? does that mean you can sing F and G?

[invictious]

a good tenor will pull off a C with chest voice. im a baritone too, i can comfortably sing a G (above middle C) comfortably. i dont quite understand what you said there, you can sing an E, but you try and force out an A? does that mean you can sing F and G?

Whoops hehe, sorry for the confusion

I can barely squeeze out an E at full chest voice, but and I reach F, G and A in head voice, even though it is somewhat like falsetto-ish, but I don't think it is falsetto.

I am trying to strengthen the top notes.

Damn, Tenor C

[clef]

see what I mean it happened again!!

should there be two different systems for calculating vocal range, one for highly trained voices and one for the rest of us. 

People say that tenors should be able to reach high C in chest voice, but what percentage of the population do you believe could do that?

Maybe G is good for top range for untrained tenor and G is good for highly trained top note baritone? I don't know...

[gruffalo]

Whoops hehe, sorry for the confusion

I can barely squeeze out an E at full chest voice, but and I reach F, G and A in head voice, even though it is somewhat like falsetto-ish, but I don't think it is falsetto.

I am trying to strengthen the top notes.

***, Tenor C

it is not falsetto, but it should be done in chest voice. when i referred to my top notes, i meant for my chest voice. i would consider you try more imaginative and creative ways (i.e. breaking the psychological barrier) as opposed to trying to strengthen the notes technically. one way of doing it is (not the same as head voice) is just to imagine channeling the sound out of the top of your head like a two-prong aerial, and instead of trying to reach the note, try to re-create a sensation of overwhelming that you would imagine when hitting those notes. at the same time, it should be done through an exercise and not a piece and you shouldnt try going for the high note straight away, maybe an arpeggio.

hope this helps,

Gruff

[invictious]

it is not falsetto, but it should be done in chest voice. when i referred to my top notes, i meant for my chest voice. i would consider you try more imaginative and creative ways (i.e. breaking the psychological barrier) as opposed to trying to strengthen the notes technically. one way of doing it is (not the same as head voice) is just to imagine channeling the sound out of the top of your head like a two-prong aerial, and instead of trying to reach the note, try to re-create a sensation of overwhelming that you would imagine when hitting those notes. at the same time, it should be done through an exercise and not a piece and you shouldnt try going for the high note straight away, maybe an arpeggio.

hope this helps,

Gruff

ok, thank you so much for that advice!

Two prong aerial eh?

[gruffalo]

yea, just picture it, or use your imagination. that's just what i think of. i would say that 2/3 of singing technique is the use of imagination and beating the psychology of it. since i have stopped thinking about the biological side, i have improved massive amounts.

[jlh]

right what you want, and let the singers figure it out.  Hell, in school choirs, the teacher had bass 2's singing the tenor lin in the agnus dei of the Faure Requiem (high f's!).  Mahler obviously didn't care - the 8th symphony has a bass 2 part ranging from low Bb (!) to top G (ie. tenor range)\

If I'm not mistaking, Mahler's 2nd Symphony has the same range for Bass 2's.  I know because I sang that part before...  I'm a bass 2 with at least 5 octaves that I claim in my range -- high (most days) F above middle C.  Low sometimes reaches the lowest notes on a piano.

I found the post about the chorus parts humorous, but much of it is obviously sarcastic and not true for most choirs.  Still, great post!

[oceansoul]

I can sing very high notes. Anyway, I don't know in which of those I am in, so I wont vote. I always thought I was a tenor, but I can sing far higher than middle C, at least I think so. I've never had singing classes, but I know I sing quite well.

Goodbye for now,
      OceanSoul.

[invictious]

Now I have joined the choir, and quit as the choir accompanist.

I am a dead baritone, and I can neither sing tenor and bass, although the director is very nice to me and somewhat allows me to try both.

I find my vocal weight more similar to a baritone, so I guess the first thing to do is to release my vocal weight (drop the dead weight) to get the high notes.

It's weak, but hey, there is an E and a F

[gruffalo]

whether you are a tenor or bass or baritone, you should always be practicing the different areas. the higher areas are slightly more dangerous to work on if you havent got a teacher. and i would only recommend trying to develope the higher range once you have gained stability in the lower-middle range (not necessarily the lower range. that just comes with time and work).

may i ask how old you are? if you are young ie. under 21 (young for singing), your voice has not fully decided itself. you may stay as a baritone, you may move to a higher or lower baritone, or you may shift to tenor. it would be obvious by now if you were to become a bass, so that is less likely. as each month goes by, more people mention to me how i am slowly gaining tenor voice qualities.

the voice that you are is not decided necessarily by its range, more by the sound your voice is creating. and this changes whilst you mature and whilst you progress technically.

Gruff

[invictious]

Meh, I am 15, I don't think the voice breaking stage will make my voice go higher.

Me wants to be a baritenor.

[jlh]

Unfortunately it's not really up to you what you become.  at 15 your voice hasn't decided what exactly it will be, and only time will tell.  As your voice changes you will probably notice you will have losta lot of higher notes, but in the world of mature male singing voices, you won't have fully become a stable voice part until about age 25-30.  I know of bass voice majors in undergrad that changed to baritone as their voice matured.  If you were a bass 2 you would already be showing signs of an extended lower range.  As you may already know, it is impossible to train your voice to go lower than your vocal chords will allow -- the vocal chords are only a certain length and that length determines how low you can sing.  You can't make your vocal chords longer.  You can however train your voice to sing higher, since this involves contraction of certain muscles, which can be trained.  So in short, unless you have the low low range, you are probably a baritone.  Shoot, you may even be a tenor and don't even know it yet!!!  Only time and a few voice lessons will definitively tell.