speed of learning new works

[liszmaninopin]

What would be a roughly normal rate for learning new pieces?  For an example, if somebody just decided one day that they were going to learn a new Beethoven Sonata (one of the moderately difficult ones), how long would it take most people to learn that?  I know that there are lots of complicating factors, but for a pianist who already plays pieces of similar difficulty, what might be a norm?

[eddie92099]

The notes of the Appassionata (complete) didn't take me longer than a week (with about an hour's practise a day),
Ed

[Dave_2004_G]

What is your practice for learning the notes to new works?  I just can't see how it's possible to learn so quickly!  I am a poor sightreader at best, but plouging through the notes (normally interpretational details at the same time) of the waldstein has taken me at least two months (to get everything up to speed) - I have to go through each section very slowly then gradually increase tempo with a metronome.

How good is your sightreading?

Dave

[BoliverAllmon]

he is not talking about having the piece completely done. he is talking about having the notes memorized.

I myself can memorize 2-3 pages in an hour.

boliver

[Dave_2004_G]

I've never really understood the talk of people memorizing things I seem to memorize as a go along (you play the piece over and over and by the time its ready to perform you just know it anyway) - probably because I'm a poor sightreader and it takes me a while to learn the notes

Dave

[BoliverAllmon]

That happens also, but when you sit down and attempt to memorize the music you are engraining the notes in your brain, not your fingers. You want to know it in your mind.

boliver

[cziffra]

what about performing from an intial memorising?  does anyone do that?

by that i mean that you sit and memorise something away from a piano, and then some time later, go and play it, without any finger practice.

to me that is the ultimate in pianistic intuitiveness- anyone heard the story of john ogdon?  

[BoliverAllmon]

Actually to me this is the easiest way to memorize and play a piece. I learned Grieg's Waltz away from the piano. What I like to do is take a phrase. Memorize it completely away from the piano. I think of how my hands would play it. When I feel real confident on the section, I go to the piano and see if I can duplicate what I was doing in my head. If I can then I go to the next section. If not, then I go back to the mental practicing. It took me 6 months to learn and play a movement to a Haydn sonata. but through this way of learning. I have completely memorized the first movement to Beethoven's Sonata op. 2 no.1 (which is suppose to be harder than the Haydn) in just 5 days.

boliver

[eddie92099]

anyone heard the story of john ogdon?  

I have told the story but am not sure which concerto it was with. Do you know?
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

That is interesting, Boliver.  When you practice away from the piano, do you move your fingers in accordance with what you imaging, or is it all done mentally, including the visualization?  I think I might give something like that a try today.

[cziffra]

have no idea which concerto it was- there may be several different versions of the story, each with a different concerto mentioned.

[BoliverAllmon]

It is done all in the head. no finger moving. I might move the fingers in accordance with what I am thinking once or twice, but most of the time they aren't.

The way I think about it is like this. Learning new pieces requires many different things all at once. Take for instance, notes, where those notes are on the keyboard,  fingering, timing, etc. Instead of trying to do all these things all at once, I do them somewhat seperately. I begin by learning the notes, where they are on the keyboard and the fingering in my mind (not actually playing). Once this is learned, I find it extremely easy to convert this knowledge to actually playing the piece. I also find myself humming the song as I play it in my head. I can focus on the musicality on the piece real easy also, if I am not worrying about hitting the right note. So when I do go and play the piece on the keyboard, I only have to think of the mental picture I have in my mind of what the piece should look like and then copy it. Simplicity is the key to learning quickly. I hope this makes sense. It is real late here and I am very tired.

boliver

[rvPianist]

William Kappell (destined to be one of the greatest concert pianists of the century - alas, he flew once too often) is well-known for learning the ENTIRE Khatchaturian Concerto within a week, ready for practice with the orchestra*.

Humbling, isn't it?

*This excerpt about Kappell was published in a booklet from one of his recordings, released on CD. Not made up, or nth-hand information.

[eddie92099]

That is entirely capable with a piece such as the Khatchaturian,
Ed

[cziffra]

boliver, your method is spectacular- why did i never think of that before?  

yesterday i began my practice session by memorising one line of an easy classical sonata, away from the piano- that short ten minutes of concentration charged my brain with music and i was prepared and ready to leap into a practice session like i have never leaped before.  (or is that leapt...ed?)

today i did it again and a similar thing happened-  the occasional difficulties of practice sessions, the tapering concentration, for example, vanished before my eyes-

it's like applying a coat of musical glue to your brain.  notes will just stick.

[BoliverAllmon]

true it does help tremendously with the concentration.

boliver

[thracozaag]

William Kappell (destined to be one of the greatest concert pianists of the century - alas, he flew once too often) is well-known for learning the ENTIRE Khatchaturian Concerto within a week, ready for practice with the orchestra*.

Humbling, isn't it?

*This excerpt about Kappell was published in a booklet from one of his recordings, released on CD. Not made up, or nth-hand information.

 Kapell also learned the Brahms D minor violin sonata overnight to play it with Heifetz and the Strauss Burleske in four days to PERFORM it with Reiner.

[eddie92099]

Obviously nobody else here knows the Ogdon story, Cziffra,
Ed

[BoliverAllmon]

Yes, I do know the story, just not the concerto. I have heard you type of it many times ed.

boliver

[liszmaninopin]

I haven't quite figured out that memorization thing away from the piano yet.  Here's what I tried:
1.  Get the score to a piece (specifically the third movement of Rachmaninoff's Sonata 2 1913).
2.  Sit down in a chair across the piano and just read over the notes on first couple bars, trying to memorize them (when visualizing, is one to visualize the hands in position over the notes, or just the notes on the keyboard?)
3.  Convince myself (falsely) that I had memorized it.  I went to the piano, and actually did okay, but had enough memory lapses that it was back to the score and the comfortable chair.
4.  Mentally try to go over the parts I forgot.
5.  Go back to the piano, newly learned parts fresh in mind, then I found that I forgot another part another part of what I had learned.
6.  Repeat above process.
I must be doing something wrong.  In the past, I memorized by just playing slowly and error-free with the score in front of me about 1 bar at a time, time after time, until it just kind of stuck in my mind and fingers.  Very slow, but it worked.  I would really like a way of memorizing pieces more quickly, and am open to all suggestions.  Are there any books about memorization?

[BoliverAllmon]

Ok, first you have to picture in your mind, what your finger will be playing what note. Don't fool yourself. It will still take some time to memorize. Some memorize faster than others. You can also put the lid down on the piano and play the piece on top of the piano. Do this at a real slow speed. Make sure your sections are not very long at all.

boliver

[eddie92099]

Yes, I do know the story, just not the concerto. I have heard you type of it many times ed.

Sorry - I meant specifically rvPianist who was singing Kapell's praises,
Ed

[liszmaninopin]

This slowness problem has been nagging at me for quite some time.  I suspect some of my problems with taking longer than I should to learn new pieces stem from the fact that I've actually only taken lessons for 3 years.  Does one get faster at learning after a few more years?  Actually, here is my repertoire, is it reasonable for 3 years of playing the piano?
Chopin:
Revolutionary Etude
Nocturne op. 9 #1
Preludes #1, 6, 7, 15, and 22
Liszt:
Liebestraum
Consolation #3
Rachmaninoff:
Preludes op. 23 # 4,5
Melodie
Elegie
A fair portion of the first movement of Sonata #2
Beethoven:
Pathetique Sonata
1st movement of Moonlight Sonata
Rondo a cappriccio (I'm not quite sure how to spell it)
Debussy:
Claire de Lune
Tchaikovsky:
A fair portion of the first movement of his Concerto #1
Of course, I would like to learn quite a bit more, but somehow I have convinced myself that this isn't enough for three years.  Am I deluding myself, or what?

[BoliverAllmon]

Well, to put it into perspective. I have been playing 1 year and this is my repertoire.

Bach:

Bouree in E min.
2-part invention 8
prelude 1 from WTC1

Haydn:
piano sonata in D maj. Hob34 (first movement)

Beethoven:
Sonata Op.2 No.1 in f min. (first movement)

various smaller pieces, (greensleeves, kabalevsky's toccatina, church pieces)

I think you are doing just fine. How long does it take to learn 1 piece?

boliver

[liszmaninopin]

Do you mean how long it takes me to learn a piece?  It depends.  Just this morning I started doing some practice on Prokofiev's Tocatta op. 11 and memorized the first page in about 20 minutes, the second page is harder, but I hope to have the first 2 memorized by the end of today.  For some reason, I have hit a terrible road block in my Rachmaninoff Sonata, and I just can't seem to get a certain passage correct.  I will learn it to use at an audition for a conservatory in a couple years, but progress in general has been slow for me with that Sonata.  Some pieces I learn quickly, for some reason or another.  The Pathetique, for example, I learned fairly quickly, but then took a long time to perfect.  That happens often to me.

[BoliverAllmon]

I think you are doing just fine. I understand what you mean about certain pieces just don't seem to work. I had to work on 2 measures on the Haydn sonata for nearly 4 hrs. one day until I could get the timing down perfectly and up to speed. On the other hand the Bach invention just came naturally. Do whatever it takes to get the job done.

yes, I was meaning how long does it take you.
oh and memorization always comes WAAAAYYYY before the piece is performance ready.

boliver

[erak]

You all learn so fast.. I think I'm going to give Boliver's method a try tomorrow.
An Etude from Heller (which was back then the hardest piece I have ever attempted) took me nearly a year to completely master. AND, it was only 2 pages long :/. Though I did not like playing the piano back then as much as I do now:). I've started Un Sospiro this July, and I got about 70% of it, until the part after the second 'grace note run'. I can play it till then, memorized and at full speed. So as you can see I learn very slowly. I plan to finish it in April or so:).

[IgnazPaderewski]

It entirely depends what it is. A Liszt Rhapsody (no 6 is the most recent) took me 2 hours to learn from memory and be able to play (despite confusing some of the inversions in the slow part). There is very little fingering to learn, and most of it is repetition (transposed), so the brain does not have anything complicated to swallow. However, I (personally) find learning (even to play from the score) anything fugal tremendously arduous, and I have to work very hard to swallow a 3-part fugue of bach. Generally, I find that so long as I can easily identify the chord and inversion, I can memorize extremely quickly. For study of a new work, I generally play through, slowly practice the odd bar that I cannot identify the pattern or harmony of, and just let the notes settle in to my system over a week or so. For instance, the Liszt Sonata has taken me a week to learn and master the mechanical problems of (2 blasted bars of octaves at the end still elude me however!) on about 2 hours a day. for something like this, I would not try to memorise it, just continue to practice it and the memory will  come soon (touch wood!...). The first movement of the Appassionata I learnt in 2 hours, and the last movement in 2 days. But this method of learning is mostly based on a sound knowledge of scales and arpeggios (and regular sight reading and improvisation), so that as soon as I see a new pattern of fast notes for example, I can instantly identify the fingering and hand postion.  So, the runs in chopin scherzo no2 would be doable at sight (the pattern is common), but the passages at the end of Rachmaninoff sonata no.2 would take time just to absorb the fingering and get my brain acquainted with the pattern as it is not that common. I hope I wont get a chain of posts criticizing my awful analogies, im tired and its the first thing that springs to mind.

[IgnazPaderewski]

By the way, Ogdon learnt Franck symphonic variations in 1 night ready to record with barbirolli the next day. Brahms 2 to play live on the radio in under 24 hours. Maybe thats what your thinking of

[DAwud7]

INteresting ways of learning i like u LISZT dont have a problem memorizing i learn most of my pieces by ear using my computer and digital piano and ocassionally have too look at scores of sheet music so i dont end up practicing something liek the HEnselt etude wrong for three weeks. But indeed memorizing for me is institaneous but it takes me a while too absorb pieces sometimes like Scriabin etude opus 8 no4 the rythms are hard to get by ear so i just memorize the notes practice a couple times a day and eventually i can play it right. Could be one night could be a couple weeks. But i also find that now i have about 6 months on my piano i progress much faster than i did when i started so i find i can memorize somethin like 2 in the morning and the next day when i get home from work i can play it decently.

[scriabinsmyman]

it depends on your connection w/ the piece....sometimes it takes me one practice session, sometimes a couple days, sometimes i feel i still dont really know a piece after a month with it.

[anda]

i've heard a lot about this method - learning away from the piano - but i still can't do it (any i have been playing the piano for many years). i guess it all comes to the kind of memory you have - my fingers' memory is very good, so i learn quite fast on the piano (i leave the learning of the notes to the fingers, making the head think only on structures, dynamics and stuff like that). by fast, i mean i've learned beethoven op. 10 no. 2 in two days (that was a few years ago, and i was having an exam to prepare in only a few days) and debussy (two short works - about 5 pages each) in 4 hours.

[Clare]

I find that writing useful things on the score while looking at it helps. Like, "G#dim" above a chord or linking some groups of notes together with dotted lines if you know the same fingers will play them and things like that. I find that I can see these markings I've made in my head along with the actual music much clearer because I've interacted with it in some way.
Does that make sense?