What about Allah?

[mycrabface]

You know people in this forum write about Jesus and christianity.. What about Allah and muslims?

[pianistimo]

i think it all started back with abraham.  he was the father of ishmael and issac.  they both were taught the same things about the same God, but had very different experiences of 'conversion.'  God knew that without sustenance, ishmael would come to know Him.  so he allowed him as a child to have a terrible experience in the desert where he was without food and water for a day.  His mother thought he was going to die - but what really happened is that he as a child was forced to look somewhere else than himself for sustenance and PRAY (as his mother prayed).  When he saw the miracle of the sudden spring of water and was revived - he was praying to the same 'allah' as issac did when he was almost sacrificed on the altar (excepting that a buck was in the bushes and God allowed a replacement sacrifice to be made).  God was teaching both of those young boys a serious lesson.  that their life and death depended on someone other than themselves and that they could expect miracles in their lives if they would pray tot he one true God.  Allah must be the same God as our Father because doesn't Allah mean similarly to Abba? 

the only thing the islamic people are missing is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  the gospel is being preached - but there is only a short time left - as i understand it.  We must present an example of the gospel that furthers what Christ taught.   a different way than terrorism.  i think this was readily seen (mercy) when mussouwi was granted his life.  the triumph that he thinks he has over christians(and possibly just americans) is that he thinks this life is leading to the next by murder  - and that he will attain favor with allah by promoting death and destruction.  what he is learning is that some of the lies of islamic faith are based upon the wrong ideas of what constitutes 'faithful.'

God calls the faithful those that uphold his commandments (one of which is to love your brother as yourself).  if you only love God and do not love your brother, the bible calls you a liar.  we are all liars to one extent or another, though, so i wouldn't single out anyone in particular.  war is terrible and the deaths lost on their side far outweigh ours right now.  but the number of deaths can be compensated for in one act of love.  people do not realize how powerful love is - but i think that the muslims are coming to know it.  the reason i think that is the recent release of several prisoners.  war is a terrible thing and both sides are to blame.  what Christ taught is so radical.  that He is coming with His kingdom which IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.  it's a better way - where peace will be a reality for everyone.

[prometheus]

the gospel is being preached - but there is only a short time left - as i understand it.  We must present an example of the gospel that furthers what Christ taught.   a different way than terrorism.  i think this was readily seen (mercy) when mussouwi was granted his life.

Terrorism is less part of islam than it is of Christianity.

Jihad was first used by Muhammed himself. Then it was only an internal spiritual battle. Until the Christians started the crusade, with some of the absurd atrocities ever; the cannibalism of Marra. The massacred the population and then ate them. And probably not because of starvation as is often claimed. But because in their eyes muslims were even lower than animals and because of 'shock and awe'.

Then the Muslims started their Jihad. The term was taken from the shelves and Saladin united the Muslims against the christians.

Today 'muslims are worse', yes. But it has nothing to do with the holy scriptures but with cultural development.

As for Mussouwi, he would have been better off dead. I don't call that insane high security prison a sign or mercy or compassion.
Surely this person is insane, guilty or not. The case against him has not made it clear at all what his role was, if he had any. I was suprised that he didd't get the dead penalty. That's probably because he asked for it.

As for the muslim people. They do not miss Jesus, but they do miss the sacrificing Christ. Allah is just the arabic word for god.

[pianistimo]

maybe a distinction should be made between peaceful muslims/peaceful christians and factions and warring sides.  many soldiers are conscripted and sent whereever they are told to go on both sides throughout time - but, you can tell which ones enjoy murdering and getting revenge and which ones are careful of who they are after ( i think americans have tried to be careful of civilians) museaums and arts and cultural places and which ones destroy everything in their sight.  also, there was a soldier here that went back to iraq to help displaced children.  the only way you can convince the other side that you mean you want to help them build their own government is to really help.  of course, now with so many factions it is extremely dangerous to do this.  it is like a snake pit for americans because many appreciate what you do, but a few just like to knock off americans because they think they are all evil.  and, some americans probably think all iraqis are evil.  but, in our hearts we know it is not a fight between americans and iraqis at this late stage of the world.  what we are witnessing is a war between good and evil.  satan's power is let loose in many places in the world right now.  dahfur - etc.  it is a spirit of hatred and an enjoyment of seeing others suffer.  i would say 1/2 to 3/4 of the WORLD is INSANE.  insane, meaning, acceeding to satan's power over this world.  he has the world captive.  if it is not fighting, it is through the mind, diet, etc.  we are deceived in so many ways.  we cannot undeceive ourselves without praying to God for his Holy Spirit and for wisdom to survive on a planet that is destroying itself for greed.

can you imagine that if Jesus Christ said 'i go and prepare a place for you'  how great and glorious that place must be by now!  he created the world in seven days.  He is an awesome God.  more loving and powerful than the power of death.  mussouwi may have plotted the twin towers incident witht he planes and planned to fly one himself - but, his plot was not only found out - but also, he was not the least bit sorry about planning the deaths of so many people.  but, as i see it - they can be ressurrected in an instant.  so any plots against us cannot be forever.  God can also ressurrect many innocent iraqis mercilessly killed as well.  i think that fairness will be in the future and not now.  we cannot fairly judge ourselves.  we cannot tell what people think - let alone decide who is truly insane and who is not.  i think it is a spiritual battle that we all face every day.  to do good or to do evil.  we are told in the bible what is good.  then, we choose to do what is in our nature and realize it is not in us to do good.  so,t hen we have to look to Jesus Christ to help us (through a committment to him - baptism or prayer or both - for help).  when we have DIVINE help - we can overcome ourselves and the enemy (satan) who is decieiving so many people to think that evil is good.

[rob47]

Pianistimo, please forgive my constant, uhm insults? , but save people some grief by not posting anymore in this thread.

The very last question by the original poster:

"What about Allah and muslims?"

pianistimo:

"what Christ taught is so radical.  that He is coming with His kingdom which IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.  it's a better way - where peace will be a reality for everyone."


.....

[prometheus]

Pianistimo cannot read and understand other people's posts, assume their point of view and then answer/discuss in the 'spirit' of what has been said or asked.

Her monologues seem to be a very important part of her personal faith. Maybe she shound think about posting with the intend of posting something that other people are going to read instead of thinking god is reading her posts.

[ahinton]

This being a forum whose principal subjects are musical, some readers might be interested to hear what Daniel Barenboim has been saying in his BBC Reith Lectures recently on a topic not at all far removed from this one.

For what good if any my own two pence worth may do here, what about Buddha, what about Zoroaster, etc., etc. - and then what about those who do not believe in any god? As long as people are noticed for perpetuating - or endeavouring to perpetuate - the "my god / prophet is better than yours", "my god's / prophet's way is right and yours isn't" attitude - especially when this is done in a deliberately offensive manner and/or gives rise to violence, mental and/or physical - the widespread problems of which we are all well aware will continue to thrive, develop and spread. Genuinely held religious beliefs are sometimes accused as being the source of social damage; to my mind, they're far less so than the kind of intolerance practised by certain of those who purport to adhere to them...

Best,

Alistair

[johnny-boy]

Pianistimo cannot read and understand other people's posts, assume their point of view and then answer/discuss in the 'spirit' of what has been said or asked.

Her monologues seem to be a very important part of her personal faith. Maybe she shound think about posting with the intend of posting something that other people are going to read instead of thinking god is reading her posts.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

John

[prometheus]

Evem if that were true then that is an ad hominem. I am not religious so I do not see your point.

About Zoroastrianism, I always wondered if Sorabji actively follows this religion.

[lisztisforkids]

Terrorism is less part of islam than it is of Christianity.

Its true that the first major atrocities were commited by Christians...Ex: Massacre of Jerusalem, Constanople... But mainstream Christianity has moved forward form the 12 century while many Musilms still seem to think that we all still live in the age of the Crusades..

[lisztisforkids]

Pianisitomo, what?

[lisztisforkids]

As for Mussouwi, he would have been better off dead. 
[/quote

I strongly disagree with you on this statement. If he was sentenced to death he would have just become a martyr....

[pianolearner]

But mainstream Christianity has moved forward form the 12 century while many Musilms still seem to think that we all still live in the age of the Crusades..

So you are criticizing Muslims for what they think? Mainstream Christians still think God exists...can you believe it!?  

[johnny-boy]

It might be a good idea for everyone to post what country they're from. I'm sure we would understand the slanting of the opinions better.

I'm from the USA. If you're ashamed to mention your country, I certainly could understand.

John

[pianistimo]

if God is real than we have the forces of evil also (Satan).  many people think that the 21st century is too advanced to believe in the Holy Spirit and demon spirits.  but, it hasn't been disproven either!  as i see it - take a chance and have faith.  it's really our only hope out of this planet full of death.  what if we found out that some people who are thought insane - are really posessed.  people did speculate that about hitler.  and, why else do so many tv shows promote witchcraft and demonology.  it all goes back to egyptian gods and their trust in the gods of this and that.  zoroastrianism is probably having something to do with 'ra' as well - just another name.  a god/ a man both one - replacement for Christ? zoroaster is supposed to be a prophet and yet - the beginner of the 'magi' ended up having his followers come and worship Christ as a baby.  they saw the 'signs' in the sky and brought gifts.  perhaps all mysteries belong to God.

[ahinton]

Evem if that were true then that is an ad hominem. I am not religious so I do not see your point.

About Zoroastrianism, I always wondered if Sorabji actively follows this religion.

Not any more, he doesn't! Seriously, no, he did not "follow" it to the letter but took a great interest in it.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It might be a good idea for everyone to post what country they're from. I'm sure we would understand the slanting of the opinions better.

I'm from the USA. If you're ashamed to mention your country, I certainly could understand.

John

Scotland, in my case. Does that tell anyone anything in this particular context? (apart from the fact that I'm certainly not ashamed to mention it...)

Best,

Alistair

[lisztisforkids]

So you are criticizing Muslims for what they think? Mainstream Christians still think God exists...can you believe it!?  

I am from the US.. But beleive me, I cant stand Chrisitans, brother is a Hardcore Mormon.    im actually somewhat buhdist 


In many Arab countrys if you walk down the street you might see people shouting 'God is great!', 'Death to America!', 'Death to the crusader infidels!', flag burning and such... I would be terribly afraid to visit some Muslim countrys. But if a muslim visited the US he/she would be generally left alone, its true there is racism but no were near on the level of the fanatiscim in the middle east.

And at least Chrisitans allow women to vote and dont force them to wear veils!

So yes... I am critizing what radical musilims think! Dont get me wrong I also crititize Chrisitians to all the time!

It seems that many, many, europeans have a huge bias against America and Chrisitians.. If I say something bad about Islam and something good about Chrisitians, people here will try to spank me. Please people! be a litle more open minded!

[lisztisforkids]

if God is real than we have the forces of evil also (Satan).  many people think that the 21st century is too advanced to believe in the Holy Spirit and demon spirits.  but, it hasn't been disproven either!  as i see it - take a chance and have faith.  it's really our only hope out of this planet full of death.  what if we found out that some people who are thought insane - are really posessed.  people did speculate that about hitler.  and, why else do so many tv shows promote witchcraft and demonology.  it all goes back to egyptian gods and their trust in the gods of this and that.  zoroastrianism is probably having something to do with 'ra' as well - just another name.  a god/ a man both one - replacement for Christ? zoroaster is supposed to be a prophet and yet - the beginner of the 'magi' ended up having his followers come and worship Christ as a baby.  they saw the 'signs' in the sky and brought gifts.  perhaps all mysteries belong to God.

What does this have anything to do with the current topic?

[henrah]

What is Zoroastrianism? And Mormon for that matter.


Someone please explain them to me, I'm highly confused
Henrah

[prometheus]

I strongly disagree with you on this statement. If he was sentenced to death he would have just become a martyr....

I though Pianistimo's point was that christians are more merciful because he didn't get the death penalty. Excluding if the jury actually were christians and if that would have been important if they were, my point was that death is more merciful than the torture he will have to go through in that prison because that just destroys a person mentally.

Zoroastrianism is the religion of the persians. The persians were later conquered by the arabs. So people from Iran though Islam is now the dominant religion in the area. I don't think westerners generally make a distinction between arabs and persians.

Some people with an Indian nationality are persi and may also  be Zoroastrians.

Mormons are Christian sect popular in Salt Lake City.

Alistair, yes I mixed up my language a bit. That happens every once in a while since english is not my first language. I remember I wanted to correct it but I couldn't find the right word quickly enough.

I am from Holland. And I cannot be ashemed of it because I never choose to be born in Holland. As for nationalism, that only leads to immoral ideas. Why add any value to nothing more than a line on a map?

I can't wait until the WC football...

[johnny-boy]

Scotland, in my case. Does that tell anyone anything in this particular context? (apart from the fact that I'm certainly not ashamed to mention it...)

Best,

Alistair

No, you're clean.

[pianistimo]

if you scroll down a ways in this article, you'll see the ties of zoroastrianism to the sun.

https://qumran.com/Holiday_Files/a_christmas_story.htm

as i see it, we're talking about 'allah' and the various religions that have held sway and then given in to other religions in the arabic world.  i read that zoroastrianism was replaced with mithraism, and then other religions to islam.  zoroastrianism has been said (and is quoted in many dictionaries as also the beginnings of the jewish and christian faith - because of similarities).  the only problem is that zoroastrianism is more focused and centered on the mysteries (astronomy, astrology, magic, mathematics, science) and is a precursor to magic rites rather than christian services.  the only tie in, imo, is the SUN.  sun/god.  if you ask a christian if they believe int he idea of good and evil and God and Satan - they'll say yes.  but zoroastrians god 'mazda' was soon replaced by 'mithra' so - how powerful could he be if he couldn't stick around very long.  Christianity has been here since God created the world.  noah preached 'the righteousness of God.'  that's not zoroastrianism and was WAY before zoroaster.

[prometheus]

The old testament is based on persian myths.

Why monotheism? That is because the lands were ruled by kings, emperors, dictators. When one rules the land then one should also rule the sky. If there is only one God it is natural to think that the people should also be government by one. Polytheism is biased towards technocracy and democracy.

[johnny-boy]

Googling isn't always factual.

[ahinton]

Alistair, yes I mixed up my language a bit. That happens every once in a while since english is not my first language. I remember I wanted to correct it but I couldn't find the right word quickly enough.

I am from Holland. And I cannot be ashemed of it because I never choose to be born in Holland. As for nationalism, that only leads to immoral ideas. Why add any value to nothing more than a line on a map?

Or "is a kitten born in a kennel a puppy?", as Sorabji - a great lover of cats - once said. Please don't take on about my remark re the tense of what you wrote about Sorabji; I understand perfectly that English is not your first language - except that, like so many Dutch people, you'd never know it unless they told you. There is also much confusion outside "The Low Countries" about the terms "Holland", The Netherlands" and "Dutch", as though they were all somehow mutually interchangeable (as of course they are in the "United States of Europe", but that's hardly the point).

I have a regular correspondent from Holland - who writes English rather better than I do...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No, you're clean.

Surely not! That's just not possible! You didn't say "clean" of what, so perhaps the absence of such clarification is, at least in part, what enabled you to come to your astonishingly optimistic conclusion. At the risk of sounding churlish (which I most certainly do not seek to do here), I can only imagine that you haven't heard a note of my music - otherwise you might have thought differently about saying that...

Thanks for the compliment anyway!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Allah is growing in popularity in many parts of England.

Blow up a few buses and you get to sleep with 24 virgins.

Tempting innit.

Thal

[zheer]

Blow up a few buses and you get to sleep with 24 virgins.

  auuhhhhhh, thats a little simplified.

[prometheus]

I have a regular correspondent from Holland - who writes English rather better than I do...

I guess that is what happens when you live in Scotland.

About the confusion about Holland and The Netherlands, I assue you know the details since you did not phrase the things you said as a question.

Thalberg, I think it is actually 72 virgins.

One virgin is trouble enough, I have been told. I can't really understand why someone would want 72 of them. No offence to any virgin of course, which includes myself, but surely if you are interested in sex you should prefer someone with some more experience.

[johnny-boy]

Surely not! That's just not possible! You didn't say "clean" of what, so perhaps the absence of such clarification is, at least in part, what enabled you to come to your astonishingly optimistic conclusion. At the risk of sounding churlish (which I most certainly do not seek to do here), I can only imagine that you haven't heard a note of my music - otherwise you might have thought differently about saying that...

Thanks for the compliment anyway!

Best,

Alistair

You're welcome...I think.

Best, John

[thalbergmad]

I guess that is what happens when you live in Scotland. .

Thalberg, I think it is actually 72 virgins.

Perhaps it is 24 per bus and you have to do 3 buses to get all 72.

I bow to your superior knowledge, I know nothing of religion.

I may drop into my local Mosque to find out more.

Thal

[ahinton]

Allah is growing in popularity in many parts of England.

Blow up a few buses and you get to sleep with 24 virgins.

Tempting innit.

Thal

I'm not sure, really - never having done any one of those three things (i.e. grown in popularity in many parts of England, blown up any buses or slept with two dozen virgins)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I'm not sure, really - never having done any one of those three things (i.e. grown in popularity in many parts of England, blown up any buses or slept with two dozen virgins)...

Best,

Alistair

That could be because it is impossible to find a Virgin in Bath.

Thal

[ahinton]

I have a regular correspondent from Holland - who writes English rather better than I do...

I guess that is what happens when you live in Scotland.

I cannot say; I do not live in Scotland. Scotland is my country of origin, not domicile or residence.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

That could be because it is impossible to find a Virgin in Bath.

Thal

You could be right - at least about the impossibility of finding one in that city. Be that as it may or may not, it could well be because I have chosen not to bother - or to go looking - and, in any case, whilst I've not lived in Scotland for many years, I've lived in plenty of other places besides Bath. While on the subject of that city, mind you, what one can easily find - indeed it's almost impossible to avoid them - is tour buses everywhere - so if one wanted to blow up any buses, Bath is at least one of the best places in England to the extent of the sheer number and choice of public service vehicles under or in which to place and detonate one's explosives if one is so inclined...

Best,

Alistair

[musik_man]

Terrorism is less part of islam than it is of Christianity.

Mohammed was a military leader in his lifetime.  Islam spent the centuries after his death building an empire.  Remember that Jerusalem had been a part of the Byzantine Empire.  The Byzantine empire itself was of course conquered by Muslims, along with Spain, India, and the Balkans.  As late as the 1600's the Ottomans invaded Europe.

Jesus says about terrorism(roughly paraphrased)

"He who lives by the sword will die by the sword"
"If anyone slaps you, turn to them the other cheek"
"My Kingdom is not of this world.  If it was my followers would have fought my arrest"(To Pilate)

[prometheus]

I know all of that. I was just referring to jihad. The meaning of jihad today is based on the events of the crusades, which were started by the christians.

[mycrabface]

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

John

ROFL

[gyzzzmo]

Just like God, but then the Islam version....

[anekdote]

Terrorism is less part of islam than it is of Christianity.

Jihad was first used by Muhammed himself. Then it was only an internal spiritual battle. Until the Christians started the crusade, with some of the absurd atrocities ever; the cannibalism of Marra. The massacred the population and then ate them. And probably not because of starvation as is often claimed. But because in their eyes muslims were even lower than animals and because of 'shock and awe'.

Then the Muslims started their Jihad. The term was taken from the shelves and Saladin united the Muslims against the christians.

Today 'muslims are worse', yes. But it has nothing to do with the holy scriptures but with cultural development.

As for Mussouwi, he would have been better off dead. I don't call that insane high security prison a sign or mercy or compassion.
Surely this person is insane, guilty or not. The case against him has not made it clear at all what his role was, if he had any. I was suprised that he didd't get the dead penalty. That's probably because he asked for it.

As for the muslim people. They do not miss Jesus, but they do miss the sacrificing Christ. Allah is just the arabic word for god.

You don't get it. You just take every opportunity to bash Christianity (Why do you hate Christianity so much? After all, our civilization was built by Christians.). The crusades were not brought about from Christian teachings. There is no passage in the Bible condoning genocide. The fact is that regardless of religion, people will fight. And they will take religion out of context to suit their needs. That is human nature.

Thus, it is fine if you say that Muhammed never condoned the modern sense of jihad. But your reasoning is hypocritical because neither did Jesus condone the Crusades! Both the Crusades and Jihad are cultural developments.

.....

Muslim Jihad is extremely dangerous to the Western world today. (Being from Holland you should know this more than I should.) It does not matter what happened in the past, we must focus on the present and future. The past is history. The present and future are our's and our children's lives.