will my hands stretch more?

[ardor]

As of late, I have become self-aware of my hand size. They're definitely not too small. Not that big, either, though. I can reach a 10th in both hands, but I really have to stretch for it.

I've read in other posts that Ashkenazy had small hands as well...and considering how famous he is, he's a really big inspiration right now. What is his span, anyway? I also read in an interview that he's "diminutive," is he really that short? Anyway...off topic.

The thing is, I haven't been playing very long. I have experience but not the scale of 10+ years or something. Will my hands get more flexible? Do I have to do exercises for that that don' tinvolve playing the piano?

Thanks

[ramseytheii]

As of late, I have become self-aware of my hand size. They're definitely not too small. Not that big, either, though. I can reach a 10th in both hands, but I really have to stretch for it.

I've read in other posts that Ashkenazy had small hands as well...and considering how famous he is, he's a really big inspiration right now. What is his span, anyway? I also read in an interview that he's "diminutive," is he really that short? Anyway...off topic.

The thing is, I haven't been playing very long. I have experience but not the scale of 10+ years or something. Will my hands get more flexible? Do I have to do exercises for that that don' tinvolve playing the piano?

Thanks

I saw Ashkenazy conducting and sat two rows back from the stage.  He is definitely short, and shorter than the women who were playing first violin, first viola, etc!  I do not know his span, but many pianists who are considered great pianists have over come small hand spans, the most famous example being Alica de Laroccha.  In my opinion, Rachmaninoff overcome his too large hand span by writing music of fast passages of notes that were very close together.  So the problem can work both ways.
Your hands will become more flexible when you practice the piano in the true way, polyphonically (C.P.E. Bach complained that Italians merely "strummed" the instrument).  In this way your hand is learning to adjust to every change in register, every change in rhythm, every shift in voicing, and is definitely the best way to become flexible.  Do not attempt as Schumann did and destroy your piano playing with ridiculous stretching excercises.  The true way of playing piano, the conception and execution of which will lead to the true piano technique, is the individual colorations of the notes.  This is not my idea but it comes from Chopin, and can be studied also thoroughly in the music of Bach and Mozart, and yes also Rachmaninoff, who is so often misunderstood and derided for the overuse of the "grand sweep" in his music.  No - it is not true.  His music is full of hundreds, thousands, of intimate, beautiful details, that can only be achieved by not trying to play everything 10 damn times faster than somebody else.  Even the fast passages in Rachmaninoff are based in the bel canto conception of sound, not in this motoric irritating fashion so often performed today.

Walter Ramsey

[ardor]

Thank you for replying.

So fugues are really helpful, then?

[donjuan]

how old are you, ardor?

some things you have control over, other things not so much..

[ardor]

I'm 20. My experience is hard to quantify, because from a very young age it's been off and on for a while. Haven't gotten serious until about 16-17. And there was a period when I was "serious" at 13 for a year or so, then I fell out of it because of other obligations. But now I really feel like I'll be sticking with it.

[steve jones]

A tenth is the standard reach for males, although anything between 9-11 is with in the 'normal' range. Very few pieces ever ask you play solid chords great than a 10th. But ofcourse, some are more difficult than others! Even people with fairly large hands often have to roll the longer tenths.

So my advice is to just chill. You have a decent reach, totally adequate to play with. If you are finding that your hands are to small for certain composers (like Chopin for example) then realise that this is a deficiency in technique, not in anatomy.

I myself have the same reach as you, although I can get most tenths pretty comfortably with the LH. Anyhow, I used to think that my hands were too small for Chopin... until I saw Lisitsa's Etudes DVD! Then I realised that it is all in the technique. She plays these pieces with such ease, and never plays one solid tenth throughout. Argerich is another, she seems to play the easier LH tenths solid, while spreading most others. Yet her playing flows so effortlessly.

Trust me, its all in the technique!

SJ

[ardor]

could you clarify what you mean by technique? Like, in this case, do you mean how you compensate for not playing them solidly?

[turner]

DeLarocha told Elyse Mach in an interview that when she was young, her teacher emphasized stretching her fingers in her technical routine.

[steve jones]

could you clarify what you mean by technique? Like, in this case, do you mean how you compensate for not playing them solidly?

Have a listen to Tiempo playing Chopin's 16th Prelude. Seriously, he rolls those chords so fast (and accents the last note) that for the longest time I didnt even realise he was doing it!

But eitherway, I think it is accepted that most people will spread the long tenths. Indeed, I dont many pianists who tackle them solid. If you can reach the similar key tenths, and the opposite key minor tenths, then there is no reason for you to worry about being deficient.

SJ

[kamike]

I also have trouble with larger reaches - can barely play some 10ths but, especially with some Chopin, cannot make all the reaches.  I found this discouraging - my teacher didn't have any sympathy either - "oh well...." - until I realized, by careful listening to recordings of professional artists, that many of them "roll" these reaches, some so artfully that you really never notice, or it sounds like it was supposed to be that way.  Even a very old recording of Shura Cherkassky of some of the preludes sounds to me as if he does the same thing.
My opinion, right at the moment, is that many of us get too hung up on the perfect technique, allowing our focus to drift from the primary objective - making music.  Frankly, I doubt those who you wish to play for will care if you hit those notes together or not...

[nanabush]

3 months ago I had to stretch alot for a tenth, but it's coming to me, I no longer have to arpeggiate tenths... my next step is playin notes between the tenth, for example

GCEC

[steve jones]

kamike,

You are absolutely right. If you listen to recordings you'll find that most pianists roll the long major tenths. Some can reach the opposite key minor tenths, some cant. Kissin for example tackles these stretches solid, but spreads the long major tenths (like D to F# for example). Argerich seems to roll alot of the easier tenths aswell as the difficult ones. Ashkenazy, Idil Biret, Tiempo, Freire, Lisitsa etc all seem to roll most if not all tenths.

But the point is, they do it so skillfully that you'd never notice. Its really a wonderful thing to see, especially when you battled with such physical limitations yourself!

Nowadays I tend to look at it like this... dealing with unreachable chords is just another technical problem that needs to be overcome. Its like mastering the motions required to play these wide spaced LH broken accompaniments. Hardly any of the top pianist's can play all of the long chords as written, so there is nothing to feel deficient about.

Ofcourse stretch your hands if you think it will help. But if you want to become technically better, then spend your time learning how best to roll these chords discretely (as the gurus do).

SJ

[kamike]

It was encouraging to me to read this thread.  Sometimes we get hung up on our limitations rather than focusing on what we can do.   

[steve jones]

I couldnt agree more!

SJ

[ardor]

thanks everyone 

On another note, I was looking at this Horowitz 5-finger stretch exercise I got from another thread here. In the annotation, he says that over the course of two year, the exercise increased his reach from an octave to an octave and a fourth (). I wish I could believe that but it seems impossible!

Unless his hands were severely stiff when he started.

[donjuan]

thanks everyone 

On another note, I was looking at this Horowitz 5-finger stretch exercise I got from another thread here.

link?

(sorry, ive been away for a while  )

[ardor]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,14703.0.html

That's the thread it's in. About 3 or 4 posts down. There's also a Godowsky one but I don't think my hands can play them....yet ;-)

[steve jones]

The Godowsky stretches DO require a large hand, no question. There are 5 finger chords in both hands spanning 10ths and 11ths.

The Horowitz exercises are different, anyone can perform these. They are like a set of arpeggios when the interval between certain notes changes to stretch the fingers apart. They're quite tricky actually! Probably be great practice for some Chopin, like Op25 No1 and some of the Nocturnes.

SJ

[ted]

Over the last two years I have been playing a lot of Waller. The left hand of his pieces as he played them often comprises rapid, filled straight tenths in all positions. A year ago I couldn't play many of them straight, not up to speed anyway, and now I play almost all of them straight with lightness and ease. I can't really explain this.  At fifty-eight, I thought everything would have long been set in concrete, so to speak. It's definitely the Waller, because I haven't a show of playing such things with my right hand. I have never consciously strained or stretched because I don't think that is wise.

So it seems it is possible to increase extension a little at any age. I would be very careful about doing it deliberately because the likely benefit doesn't outweigh the consequences of injury. In this case it just happened without my noticing over a period of a year or more.

[gilad]

like someone mentioned you dont want to pull a schumann and damage your hands.

[timothy42b]

So it seems it is possible to increase extension a little at any age. I would be very careful about doing it deliberately because the likely benefit doesn't outweigh the consequences of injury. In this case it just happened without my noticing over a period of a year or more.

I am young compared to Ted, only 53.  <g>  I have just noticed over the last week or so, playing one of the chants for church that requires an awkward stretch for me, that it has become much easier.  I am able to relax the hand instead of straining.  However, the maximum spread of notes I can reach has not changed at all.  So I'm not sure what happened exactly.  The hands don't seem to have stretched, but the ease of making a stretch has improved. 

[ted]

Timothy:

Yes, that sounds exactly like my experience; obviously the same process at work, whatever it is. The only thing I could perceive at the conscious level was that it works as long as I play lightly, not necessarily softly though, and with a sort of physical insouciance that is hard to put into words. If I consciously think, "Ah, now I'm playing a big stretch," and try to force the grip, it keels over. If I just bang it down directly with a relaxed hand it works. I'm not sure I could explain to somebody how to do it.

[ardor]

I think you're right, Ted. For a while my hand size never really bothered me, but now that I've started to think about it, it feels like I stretch my hand more. I guess it's part psychological.

[steve jones]

I think that if you are really serious about expanding the hand (and lets face it, that would be advantagous for the small of mitt), then might as well go about it seriously - try contacting surgeons, physiotherapists, sports scientists etc, and find out what can be done.

For example, Im sure I heard someone mention a surgical procedure which involve attenuating webbed skin between the fingers.

Its possible there are other things that might be useful too. I mean, they manage to cure 'trigger finger' using a simple surgical procedure along with physiotherapy. If something as extreme as this can be sorted, then Im quite sure that the handspan can be increase marginally.

Personally, an extra centimetre would save me alot of hardwork - I have to really stretch to get the black/white key minor tenths! But Im merely a student, and for now I am happy working one my technique to get around any problems.

SJ

[casparma]

but ardor, when you said you can reach a tenth (by realing streching your hand), did you imply that you wont hit other notes?

I dont think you need to complain, since a hand span of 9th or 10th is pretty ideal, and btw, most girls in my music school play well despite small hands, I think they average a hand span of 8th?

[bearzinthehood]

I don't think there's much you can do about your maximum pinky to thumb hand span, but there is a lot that can be done about your comfort level with various figurations within that span.

[steve jones]

I don't think there's much you can do about your maximum pinky to thumb hand span, but there is a lot that can be done about your comfort level with various figurations within that span.

True.

But I think they both pretty much serve one another. For example, with my finger pushed apart, my hand span is just a smidge over 9 inches. Yet I can other reach  about 8.5 using my own stretch. If we could train to access out full span using minimal effort, then we'd be in much better form.

Take this for an example...

I injuryed my RH a few years ago, and this has left my wrist very unsupple. With this hand I can only comfortably reach a ninth.

My LH is stonger and has better flexibilty, and I can reach most tenths (other than the long major oppposite key tenths).

Quite a difference Im sure you'll admit. And this is caused purely by the strength and flexibility of muscles. Both of my hands are the approximately the same size and shape.


SJ

[bearzinthehood]

Perhaps, but most people's absolute maximum hand span is achieved in a position that's pianistically unsound.

[steve jones]

Very probable.

But I must admit, I do find this an interesting topic. I mean, consider the lengths that professional atheletes go to in order to get in top physical shape. Yet we as pianists do hardly anything interms of physical training beyond our basical technical development.

It often makes me wonder what could be achieve with the right training regime?

Atleast, Im sure we could protect ourselves from injury. At best, maybe we could open up whole new possibilites?

SJ

[ardor]

but ardor, when you said you can reach a tenth (by realing streching your hand), did you imply that you wont hit other notes?

A tenth is the max I can reach without accidently hitting other notes. By hand has to be on the edge of the white keys, though.

[ted]

Don't forget that the actual span of tenths varies tangibly within visually similar keyboard patterns.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,13424.msg144589.html#msg144589

Believe it or not, the obvious arithmetic of the above thread had never occurred to me. I kept on thinking, "This tenth looks the same, why does it feel different ?"
A corollary is that any pair of similar looking figures on the keyboard actually have slightly different physical grips. This presumably explains that mysterious sensation of feeling different when transposing geometrically similar figures using the same fingering.

[steve jones]

Interesting. But to me, quite imaterial as I cant reach these long opposite key tenths anyway! 

But yeah, I had noticed something similar when combaring minor tenths and ninths:

C - Eb against E - Gb

Although there is semitones difference in the interval, the span of white keys is the same. Yet the C-Eb is longer and harder to play.

Another issue is the position of the black keys, and how they can obstruct the fingers. For example, in C-Eb, the C# key is position so that it obstructs the finger slightly. Whereas this is not an issue when playing E-Gb.

Not sure if this is the same as your point or not.

SJ

[ardor]

yeah, unfortunately...I cannot reach every kind of tenth. I haven't tried all of them, but only the white to white major tenths are reachable for me. I somewhat assumed that people start with their thumb on C when they're talking about span, and so I was refering to the C-E span. A black key tenth, though...like F# to A#, I can't do