3-2-1 mordente

[timothy42b]

On the first line of the first piece in the Anna Mag notebook, there is a "squiggle with line through it" marked on a C.  My edition fingers it as 3-2-1.  (C-B-C, I assume.)

It feels clumsy however I do it.  What is the way to get that pattern smooth?  It seems to be a thumb-over movement. 

[pianistimo]

what i do is to move the hand quickly to the right to play the C the second time.  you could practice this without playing any notes at all.  just 'ghost' it.  that way, you don't have to use your thumb joints as much as simply moving the hand quickly back so it can play the C naturally with the thumb.

[henrah]

Why not play it without moving your fingers, i.e. 2-1-2? Or do the notes proceeding up to it not allow such a way?

[obca]

My edition fingers it as 3-2-1.  (C-B-C, I assume.)

My prof says to me to use in the first mordente 3-2-1 and in the seconde one 3-2-3.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

3-2-1 is one of those fingerings which are great for mordents. it makes life easier. the thing is, you must know why it's fingered that way. if you do a 2-1-2, the tendency is to become sluggish especially if there are other notes that immediately follow (or precede) the mordent. with 2-1-2, you'd have to use the 2nd finger twice, whereas with 3-2-1, no finger is repeated... this means there's less struggle with the use of your facilities- therefore it's faster and clearer.

depending on the direction of the phrase, there can be another option like 3-1-2 (C-B-C). basically, the trick should be your hand position. fingers 3 and 2 should be in the same space as they play the same note, so there might be some shifting involved in the execution... or your hand should face a certain angle.. try to experiment...

another example is the mordent with an upper note (say, C-D-C). with this, we can use 1-3-2, where fingers 1 and 2 are in the same space (or somewhat parallel to each other vertically).

there are a lot of weird fingerings which sometimes don't make any sense at all. Alfred Cortot has a lot of these in his Chopin Etudes editions. but there is a logic to these fingerings and they are usually based on the kind of technique and facility the editor posseses. like Cortot's "french" technique, he uses fingerings which automatically assigns the intended weight of the fingers/hand on the notes in order to play a certain kind of phrasing, or in order to make a certain sound. he treats weight scientifically. for example: the RH c-minor chord in the opening of the Beethoven Pathetique, he would use 2-1-5 (2nd finger on the Eb, thumb on the G, and 5th on the top) because this kind of hand position shifts the weight to the top note, therefore, AUTOMATICALLY voicing the top voice.

(OFF TOPIC: and the natural "dropping" of the whole arm seems to makes so much sense with these kinds of fingerings.)

sorry for the long post. i'm obsessed with fingerings.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

It feels clumsy however I do it.  What is the way to get that pattern smooth?  It seems to be a thumb-over movement. 

try putting those fingers on the keys which they are to play and depress those keys for a few seconds. this means your 3rd and 1st fingers should be on the same key (C), and the 2nd finger on the B... now that should be your hand position, or meaning, your thumb should be under the 3rd finger even at the very beginning of the execution.  hope that helps.. it's difficult to explain, demonstration is the best teacher IMO.

[pianistimo]

mine is more of a thumb over.  or, at least even and not 'tucked.'

[timothy42b]

Thanks all, that is really helpful.

This is the kind of thing that takes a half hour discussion or a 3 second demonstration, but I had nobody nearby to show me. 

My teacher had a policy of not demonstrating anything until I'd done it obviously wrong and struggled with it, then she'd say, "Why don't you try it like this?" and reach over and play it.  She moved out of the country, though, so for a while I'm figuring things out on my own.