My dilema about ornaments

[persona]

There are some cases where I like ornaments, and others where I simply don't. If you visit www.mutopiaproject.org and listen to their Rondo Alla Turca midi with no ornaments in it, you'll see what I'm talking about. I like it so much better that way!! It's not a matter of custom. As a matter of fact, I've always listened to this piece in it's original form, but still I prefer the "bare" version. Does this happen to anyone else? Is it accepted in the profesional community to play pieces skipping certain ornaments, or are they all mandatory?

PS: just to be clear, I'm not talkng about skipping every single ornament, but rather choosing the ones I like. Is this ok?

PS2: notice that their pdf file does have all this ornaments, they were just not included in the midi file maybe because of laziness, or who knows what...

[barnowl]

As yet, I don't know enough about the mores of music to have a legitimate opinion on this, but I would think it's okay to play only the ornaments you want to play. Then, later, when you've become much more adept, perhaps your outlook will have changed and you'll revisit the piece to play it exactly the way Mozart wrote it.

About my stand on ornaments (as if it mattered)...

I love 'em - in Mozart's works, anyway - and if I were assigned a piece and then didn't or couldn't play all of them, well, it would make me feel bad.

Fact is, I'm hungering to play his Turkish March in all its glory. It's one of the pieces that is wired in my digital p.  and it knocks me out every time I hear it. But my teacher said Nyet, for now. I've got a lot to learn before attacking that one.

[persona]

barnowl: thanx for your answer. I'm not so sure wether Mozart wrote all this ornaments himself, or this is just the way the piece is usually performed this days. Could anyone please answer this other doubt of mine as well?

[stagefright]

as pianist who is playing other peopels' music you are a reproductive artist
your aim should be to REPRODUCE the cpmposition as it was written
thus all the ornaments are a must

if you are not sure if the composer originally wrote the ornaments or they were put in later by sombody else, you should do your own investigation and consult as much sources as possible
but belive me, with big names like Mozart, it has already been done by other competent musician

I agree that there are on the market some easy versions of popular tunes, but they always bear the sign "simplified version"

[jlh]

as pianist who is playing other peopels' music you are a reproductive artist
your aim should be to REPRODUCE the cpmposition as it was written
thus all the ornaments are a must

if you are not sure if the composer originally wrote the ornaments or they were put in later by sombody else, you should do your own investigation and consult as much sources as possible
but belive me, with big names like Mozart, it has already been done by other competent musician

I agree that there are on the market some easy versions of popular tunes, but they always bear the sign "simplified version"

In most cases, the ornaments were not actually written by the composer, but added later by score editors.  Composers of that time assumed the performers would know how and where ornaments are required.  Therefore the ornaments, while necessary, and not doctrine.  That said, you should play them as written if you don't have a thorough and authoritative understanding of the ornament system of the time.

This doesn't mean the ornaments were not there to begin with, and they were probably played very similarly by the composers themselves.  I do find it hard to believe that the ornaments were played exactly the same way every time the composer played a piece, but I'm sure the 'flavor' of the piece was the same.

[barnowl]

Persona, is your dilemma with ornaments due to a hesitancy to try to play them all? When I first took piano lessons (for 18 months starting in 1983), I was reluctant to attempt almost any ornament. Now, I'll try every one I meet, in whatever piece I'm assigned.

Anyway...

There's a book: W. A. Mozart - An Introduction to his Keyboard Works, that hits the high spots in less than three pages. I'd scan the appropriate pages and email them to you, but I am horrible with my scanner. Everything I do ends up giganto. Maybe someone else will step up.

An even better book (I think) is one that just came in the mail today today:

Ornamentation A Question and Answer Manual. Check it out at Amazon.

By the title you'd think it's dry piece of doo-doo, but it's verry pleasing to the eye and seems to be written engagingly, with the questions tucked in the left hand margin. The net effect is you don't feel you're reading a MANUAL, if you know what I mean.

[persona]

barnowl:
My dilema has more to do with the sound. For some reason, I prefer unornamented pieces (most of the times, but not all of them). I dont know why. Maybe, as you say, it's related to the fact that I'm a begginer. It's possible that, with time, I'll get accostumed to them and look at them in a diferent way. I don't know. I'll try to get my hands on that book you say.

jlh:
Thanx a lot for your answer. I didn't know that.

[emmdoubleew]

Hhahahah. I'd like to hear you play Beethoven's Appasionata first movement without the ornaments. 

[jlh]

Maybe a better way to phrase my answer is "in a lot of cases", not really most cases.  Check out some facsimiles of original manuscripts and you WILL see a lot of ornaments written in the score.  Also, listen to some Bach recordings by Andras Schiff and you will find a wide variety of ornaments that he plays that are NOT written in the score, even changing many of them at will.

I'm pretty sure the ornaments in Appasionata were Beethoven's.   Same with Rondo Alla Turca.

When in doubt, don't skip the ornaments.