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How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill? (Read 11917 times)

Offline barnowl

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How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
« on: May 15, 2006, 03:23:47 PM »
I keep losing mine.

Exercise 32 for example: I go along, reading the music as I drill. Then, at some point I stop and look down to see if I'm on the right notes. I look back up and oops. Lost the place.

Do you recommend marking up the drill somehow? How?

Would you bring your marked up Hanon to a Lesson? (In other words, is marking up such a drill considered cheating? Or stupid?)

piano sheet music of The Virtuoso Pianist Part 2 (21-43)


Offline piazzo23

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #1 on: May 15, 2006, 03:36:07 PM »
I keep losing mine.

Exercise 32 for example: I go along, reading the music as I drill. Then, at some point I stop and look down to see if I'm on the right notes. I look back up and oops. Lost the place.

Do you recommend marking up the drill somehow? How?

Would you bring your marked up Hanon to a Lesson? (In other words, is marking up such a drill considered cheating? Or stupid?)

you better memorize it. They΄re not to improve reading. And practice them hands separate. It΄s nearly useless hands together.

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 04:22:32 PM »
Your advice makes excellent sense and I'd like to do them hands separate, piazzo23. But this was my second lesson with my teacher, and the first time I played anything for her. I utterly disgraced myself doing scales.

I didn't have the presence of mind to ask how she expected me to play the drill, but in view of the terrible ThumbUnder technique I displayed in the scales,  I think she wants hands together.

So, does anyone mark their Hanons - or use any other tricks to keep your place?

Offline jlh

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #3 on: May 15, 2006, 06:19:45 PM »
Hanon is a pattern study.  Memorize the pattern and be able to play it in adjacent key signatures and you're good.  The pattern doesn't change in most of them until the point when the overall motion is down instead of up.  I'd probably mark that point so you can see how the pattern changes and the place at which it occurs.
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #4 on: May 16, 2006, 07:35:21 AM »
I used Sibelius to create a two page precis of the first 20 Hanon exercises.

I reduced each exercise to: the first bar of each pattern; the bar at the top, so I knew where to stop; the 'turn around' bar at the top because I could never remember it; the final bar of each pattern.

This way, I can leave the two sheets on the stand and play straight through all 20 exercises without stopping.

When I'm feeling dedicated, that is  :D

Can you print out Sibelius4 documents? I will send you the file if you can (can also send it in Sib2 and 3 formats).

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #5 on: May 16, 2006, 07:26:13 PM »
Snip

Can you print out Sibelius4 documents? I will send you the file if you can (can also send it in Sib2 and 3 formats).

Steve  :)
Quote

Feel absolutely free to send it to me!  :) :) :)

In the meantime, I'll google on Sibelius and will Google on it. Right now I'm at my daughters, babysitting her twin boys (6.5 months).

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #6 on: May 16, 2006, 07:32:54 PM »
Snip

Can you print out Sibelius4 documents? I will send you the file if you can (can also send it in Sib2 and 3 formats).

Steve  :)
Quote

Feel absolutely free to send it to me!  :) :) :)

In the meantime, I'll google on it. Right now I'm at my daughters, babysitting her twin boys (6.5 months).



Uh, Steve, you better hold off. I Googled and then saw the price for Sibelius. Buthanks very much for the thought.

Offline maryruth

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #7 on: May 16, 2006, 07:46:38 PM »
Instead of looking down at your hands to make sure they are on the right note, how about using your ears to hear if you're on the right note? 

Offline jlh

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #8 on: May 16, 2006, 08:52:56 PM »
I used Sibelius to create a two page precis of the first 20 Hanon exercises.

I reduced each exercise to: the first bar of each pattern; the bar at the top, so I knew where to stop; the 'turn around' bar at the top because I could never remember it; the final bar of each pattern.

This way, I can leave the two sheets on the stand and play straight through all 20 exercises without stopping.

When I'm feeling dedicated, that is  :D

Can you print out Sibelius4 documents? I will send you the file if you can (can also send it in Sib2 and 3 formats).

Steve  :)

Could you send one to me? 

Thanks!
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "”””””””\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #9 on: May 16, 2006, 09:11:15 PM »
Could you send one to me?  email is jhpianist(a)gmail.com

Thanks!
I have sent it. Pm me if it doesn't arrive.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #10 on: May 16, 2006, 09:15:42 PM »
Snip

Can you print out Sibelius4 documents? I will send you the file if you can (can also send it in Sib2 and 3 formats).

Steve  :)
Quote

Feel absolutely free to send it to me!  :) :) :)

In the meantime, I'll google on Sibelius and will Google on it. Right now I'm at my daughters, babysitting her twin boys (6.5 months).

Hope the babysitting was fun.

It is possible to use Scorch to print Sibelius files, although I do not know how =- maybe someone here can help.

In the meantime, I would need an email addy to send it to you as an attachment, so let me know if you want me to do this.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 10:50:01 PM »
Hope the babysitting was fun.

It is possible to use Scorch to print Sibelius files, although I do not know how =- maybe someone here can help.

In the meantime, I would need an email addy to send it to you as an attachment, so let me know if you want me to do this.

Steve  :)

I sent the address. Thank you!

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 10:54:18 PM »
Instead of looking down at your hands to make sure they are on the right note, how about using your ears to hear if you're on the right note? 

I'll work on that, MaryRuth. Thanks for your suggestion. After all, owls are supposed to have excellent hearing. (They're also supposed to be wise, so why didn't I think of listening for the right note?)

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #13 on: May 16, 2006, 11:16:59 PM »
I sent the address. Thank you!
Nothing has come through yet, and I see you are as new to this as I am. I have sent you a couple of pm's, so keep on trying.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 12:28:08 PM »
Nothing has come through yet, and I see you are as new to this as I am. I have sent you a couple of pm's, so keep on trying.

Steve  :)

Steve - did you know you can click on a poster's name and get his/her email address? Try it.

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #15 on: May 17, 2006, 12:58:30 PM »
Steve - did you know you can click on a poster's name and get his/her email address? Try it.
Yes, but yours is marked as 'hidden'.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #16 on: May 17, 2006, 01:11:58 PM »
There should be a red-faced emoticon, which is how I feel right now.  ;D ;D ;D

My email fiasco is exactly what I deserve for not reading the fine print when enrolling.

It's fixed now, I hope.

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #17 on: May 17, 2006, 01:21:08 PM »
There should be a red-faced emoticon, which is how I feel right now.  ;D ;D ;D

My email fiasco is exactly what I deserve for not reading the fine print when enrolling.

It's fixed now, I hope.
Hehe.

I have emailed it now, so watch an enthusiastic spam buster doesn't eat it  :D

You can get a friend to print it for you through their Sib3\4 software. Alternatively, you can download Scorch for free (software that allows non-Sib users to print scores written in Sib). You can get it from http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/download/get.pl?com=sh&prod=scorch.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #18 on: May 18, 2006, 02:05:12 AM »
Hehe.

I have emailed it now, so watch an enthusiastic spam buster doesn't eat it  :D

You can get a friend to print it for you through their Sib3\4 software. Alternatively, you can download Scorch for free (software that allows non-Sib users to print scores written in Sib). You can get it from http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/download/get.pl?com=sh&prod=scorch.

Steve  :)

I got the attachment. Thanks a lot.

I'll try to open it somehow. (I don't have any musical friends so I'll have to wing it.)

Thanks again, Steve.

Offline Motrax

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #19 on: May 18, 2006, 02:47:29 AM »
If you send the sibelius file to me, I 'd be happy to convert it to a .pdf file and send it to whoever's interested.

I've PMed you my email address Steve - it might take me a day or so to convert this because I'm moving tomorrow and won't have access to my computer for a while.
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #20 on: May 18, 2006, 08:50:35 AM »
If you send the sibelius file to me, I 'd be happy to convert it to a .pdf file and send it to whoever's interested.

I've PMed you my email address Steve - it might take me a day or so to convert this because I'm moving tomorrow and won't have access to my computer for a while.
That's a brilliant idea, Motrax. Thanks for the offer, but I have the software to do this - just hadn't thought of it. I have done a conversion and sent it to barnowl.

My pm doesn't seem to be working. Nothing has come through from either barnowl or you. Send me an email if you want the file anyway.

Good luck with the move. My wife and I swore the last one would be our final move. We shall see........................

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline Motrax

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #21 on: May 18, 2006, 01:02:24 PM »
Oh, it's just a move from college back home (which is why it won't take too long to get back on my computer... I'm not that desperate for pf  :P). I did send a PM to you last night, but my internet's been acting up, so it probably didn't actually get sent. I don't practice Hanon (anymore), so I don't need the file, but thanks for offering it!

Good luck 'n' such.  :)

- M
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #22 on: May 19, 2006, 12:15:47 PM »
Thanks to you, Steve, this has become a most amusing thread.

But what does "Pm me" mean?

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #23 on: May 19, 2006, 02:00:09 PM »
Thanks to you, Steve, this has become a most amusing thread.

But what does "Pm me" mean?
Hi barnowl. It means, 'send me a personal message via this forum.' To do this, you go to a forum member's profile page, scroll down to the bottom of the screen and click the 'Send this member a personal message' link.

Hope the multiple copies of the .pdf conversion arrived eventually.

Steve
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #24 on: May 20, 2006, 04:15:19 AM »
Hi barnowl. It means, 'send me a personal message via this forum.' To do this, you go to a forum member's profile page, scroll down to the bottom of the screen and click the 'Send this member a personal message' link.

Hope the multiple copies of the .pdf conversion arrived eventually.

Steve

Mine did. By multiple, do you mean the same file sent to others here? I got one file, and I assumed that's all I'd need. true?

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #25 on: May 20, 2006, 07:59:36 AM »
Mine did. By multiple, do you mean the same file sent to others here? I got one file, and I assumed that's all I'd need. true?
You should also have a .pdf file that you can immediately open and read in Acrobat Reader.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #26 on: June 02, 2006, 01:19:36 AM »
You should also have a .pdf file that you can immediately open and read in Acrobat Reader.

Steve  :)

What's the name of the PDF file? I'd have replied sooner, but I thought this thread was dead, and I just learned how to be notified when someone replies.

Hell, I even just learned how to post an attachment! (by clicking on  Additional Options).

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #27 on: June 02, 2006, 08:15:15 AM »
What's the name of the PDF file? I'd have replied sooner, but I thought this thread was dead, and I just learned how to be notified when someone replies.
Ehup, barnowl.

The doc is called Hanon.pdf. I sent it to your private gmail address on May 18th.

Quote
Hell, I even just learned how to post an attachment! (by clicking on  Additional Options).
That is more than I can do. Explain how and I will send the doc via this system.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #28 on: June 02, 2006, 09:06:35 AM »
Ehup, barnowl.

The doc is called Hanon.pdf. I sent it to your private gmail address on May 18th.
That is more than I can do. Explain how and I will send the doc via this system.

Steve  :)

Hi Steve,

I already have the doc you sent.

Attachments are embarrassingly easy. (A guy told me how to do it here, with the most succinct post I've ever seen. Not a word, just a couple of red arrows.)

Start a post - whether you're opening a new thread or just adding a post to an exisiting thread. Look in the black margin for Additional Options. and click on it. Do it now as you type. You can click in the box for Notify me of replies (and/or the other two options) so that you get an email when replies come in.

Then below that is Attachments for...attachments! ;D. Note the Allowed file types - mp3, midi, gif, jpg, mpg.

You need to know - at least roughly - where, in your computer, the attachment is. The Browse button enables you to grope for it.

It's that simple, and I've been wondering how to do it ever since I got here. But if you still can't figure it out, please don't hesitate to tell me.

Skip

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #29 on: June 02, 2006, 09:16:43 AM »
In that case, here is the doc for anybody else who wants it.

Steve  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #30 on: June 02, 2006, 09:22:17 AM »
Back to bed for me. it's 5:22 am.

Got a lesson this afternoon at 3pm EDT. I need to be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

Offline stevehopwood

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #31 on: June 02, 2006, 09:23:33 AM »
Sleep well  :)
Piano teacher, accompanist and soloist for over 30 years - all of them fantastic.
www.hopwood3.freeserve.co.uk

Offline bernhard

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #32 on: July 03, 2006, 04:57:06 AM »

I didn't have the presence of mind to ask how she expected me to play the drill, but in view of the terrible ThumbUnder technique I displayed in the scales,  I think she wants hands together.

So, does anyone mark their Hanons - or use any other tricks to keep your place?

Oh dear, oh dear…

Thumb under for playing scales? Hanon drills?

Have a look at these threads for some good news (or perhaps some very bad news).

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.msg147163#msg147163
(Why Hanon is a waste of time – or not -  summary of arguments and many relevant links)

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).

http://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7175.msg114163.html#msg114163
(wrist action – the movements that should be avoided when playing and the movements that should be used).

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing - an alternative fingering for scales).

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg104249.html#msg104249
(Scale fingering must be modified according to the piece – Godard op. 149 no.5 – yet another example of the folly of technical exercises)


Just the tip of the melting iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S. To answer your question:

a.   Train yourself to find the keys by touch, this way you can keep your eyes glued to the score. Here is how you do it:

http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4461.msg41580.html#msg41580
(Looking at the keys: Good or bad? exercises to help finding notes by touch. Good contributions by Chang).


b.   Failing that, when you go back to look at the score, direct your gaze not at what would be the next bar (this is what causes you to get lost –since you do not know where the next bar is), but at the bar where you were when you left the score to look at the keys. Since you know exactly where this bar is (you were looking at it before looking at the keys), it will be easy to locate it. From there you move to the next unknown bar.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline barnowl

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #33 on: July 03, 2006, 11:50:08 AM »
It was extraordinarily thoughtful of you to compile such a detailed post, Bernhard.

I'll get the ink cartridges my printer so desperately needs and print out every thread you linked to, and read each one very carefully.

By the way, I don't lose my place very much these days. I'm reading music better, and can now just keep my eyes on the page and let my fingers find the notes — for Hanon, Scales, and easy kids' pieces, that is.

But for a rag like Scott Joplin's "Weeping Willow," I have to memorize each section so I can find my way, especially for the left hand. (I'm playing the real thing, not a dumbed down verion.)

With that in mind I think I'll take a long look at...


http://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4461.msg41580.html#msg41580

...first.

And thank you once again, Bernhard, for your kindness.



Offline bernhard

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Re: How can a beginner keep his place in, say, a Hanon drill?
«Reply #34 on: July 04, 2006, 11:28:37 PM »
You are welcome. :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)