Most Technically Demanding Etude in a set

[bflatminor24]

Hey everyone,

I'm sure you are all probably sick of the hackneyed debate over the "hardest" piano piece. But I've narrowed it down to etudes in terms of technical difficulty. For the sake of understanding, let's keep the suggestions to etudes we are all familiar with, not something you yourself wrote or some joke etude you found online. I've listed some examples of etudes I believe to be of ridiculous difficulty for their respective set.

Sorabji Etudes - Etude No. 75 "Passacaglia"
Godowsky Etudes - "Triple Etude" in A minor (10/2, 25/11, 25/4)
Liszt Etudes - Feux Follets
Scriabin Etudes - 42/5 in C sharp minor
Chopin Etudes - 10/2, 25/6
Dohnanyi Etudes - 28/3, 28/4, 28/6 "Capriccio"
Ligeti Etudes - L'escalier du diable
Henselt Etudes - 5/12
Saint-Saens Etudes - Etude Op. 111 No. 6 Toccata D'Apres Le 5e Concerto: Molto Allegro
Hamelin Etudes - Prelude and Fugue in A flat minor
Alkan Etudes - Op. 17 "Le Preux, Op. 39/6-10

[thorn]

of the etudes i know of:

Liszt Etudes - Mazeppa and Chasse-Neige are harder than Feux Follets
Chopin Etudes - 25/11
Ligeti Etudes - Touches Bloquees from Bk 1, Vertige in Bk 2 and A Bout de Souffle in Bk 3
Debussy Etudes- "Pour les huit doigts"
Lyapunov Etudes- Aeolian Harp
Messiaen Etude- Modes de valeurs et d'intensites

out of all of these, i'd probably rank the Messiaen as the hardest

[stevie]

Godowsky Etudes - "Triple Etude" in A minor (10/2, 25/11, 25/4)

doesnt exist, hamelin did it

and its not as hard as it could be, due to the way it is written

obviously the most difficult to perform at intended tempo, and the one hamelin struggles with most live, is the 25/11 version by godowsky, away from that - the lh 10/4 and 10/2 are very very difficult taken at tempo

Dohnanyi Etudes - 28/3, 28/4, 28/6 "Capriccio"

ive tried some of these, they arent terribly difficult, but awesome pieces! especially the 28/4

Hamelin Etudes - Prelude and Fugue in A flat minor
Alkan Etudes - Op. 17 "Le Preux, Op. 39/6-10

agreed about the hamelin

but concerning the alkan, le preux's difficult depends COMPLETELY upon the tempo you take it, taken at extreme speeds its extremely hard....but the notes arent terribly hard by themselves

but in general, alkan's hardest pieces are -

39/8 for sheer size and variety of difficulties

39/10 - compare the latimer and hamelin recordings, this piece is extremely demanding in speed and endurance

39/1 - if taken at intended tempo, noone has done this!

and lastly - the 76/2, EXTREMELY HARD stuff for right hand alone


as a final word regarding comparing difficulties - it always depends upon the speed you intend to perfomr the pieces at, so maybe when comparing difficulties we should consult the composer's intended speed?

in this case, for alkan and godowsky - the 39/1 and 25/11 are respectively near impossible for most pianists if taken at intended tempo

[bflatminor24]

Let me add a few corrections...The hardest Godowsky Etude at tempo is definitely the 25/11 one, just look at the score! I meant to write this, don't know why I typed "triple etude," which Hamelin did write.

The Messiaen Etude is extremely hard. As for Dohnanyi, 28/6 is ridiculous! I don't know anyone personally who can play this.

Rachmaninoff Etude 39/9 in D Major is extremely hard...

Alkan Etudes rank among the most difficult, with Le Preux, the Symphony Finale, and the first and third movement of the concerto being monstrous (and breathtaking).

I'd say the hardest sets ever written, in order are:

Sorabji
Godowsky
Alkan
Ligeti
Messiaen
Debussy
Scriabin
Liszt
Dohnanyi
Saent-Saens
Henselt
Rachmaninoff
Chopin
Schumann

[nicco]

I want to see Moszkowski in there 

[nanabush]

Are the debussy etudes that difficult?  Moreso than the Liszt?

[thorn]

Are the debussy etudes that difficult?  Moreso than the Liszt?

no they aren't more difficult than the Liszt.. well not in my opinion anyway.... there are a couple of Debussy Etudes that i'd say were harder than Liszt, but the Liszt that are harder than Debussy greatly outnumbers them.

as for the Messiaen etudes- i dont think either of the "Ile de feu" pieces are that hard in comparison to Etudes 2 and 3

[etudes]

Lyapunov No.11 is the most difficult from the set from my point of view (i dont play them all)
Alkan Symphony finale is not that difficult (well...of course depends on speed you play but just the score and those runs are fit to your hands)
Rach i would say op.39 no.6

[presto agitato]

What about Mendelssohn etudes?

[nicco]

But mendelssohn only made like...3 etudes

[soliloquy]

Alkan Op. 76 No. 2 is harder than any of the other etudes listed except some of the Sorabji etudes, more specifically the ones pushing 40 minutes.  Etude de Concert "Le Preux" Op. 17 and "Comme le Vent" Op. 39 No. 1 are possibly literally impossible to play at tempo, not only for physical reasons of the performer but for physical reasons of a concert grand piano.  The 76-2 is definitely more difficult than any movement of the Solo Concerto or the Symphonie, despite the musical pitfalls in the 39-4.  It rivals the first movement of the Concerto as far as time required to play it and is only for the RH.  It's also a set of variations so it gave Alkan a nice excuse to throw every nasty trick he knew into the piece (keep in mind he wrote the piece at the time where everything he was publishing was insanely difficult: the "Op. 76" can be misleading).

Of Sorabji the insanely long Passacaglia etude is probably the hardest, but I wouldn't say for sure since I don't have any experience with them.

Some of Dusapin's etudes are harder than Sorabji's.  John Cage's "Etudes Australes" can be viscious also.  Xenakis wrote etudes called "Seiben Klavierstucke" but then retracted them.  They are much harder than anything by Sorabji also.  Not to go unmentioned, Roslavets' "Studies" and Bolcom's "Twelve New Etudes" can be pretty insane, but aren't long enough to contend with Sorabji's; more difficult if time is not considered a factor.  Rzewski's etudes (recording is tough to get ahold of) aren't any walk in the park either.

Ligeti etudes No. 6 and 14a are both way harder than No. 13.   I'd say Desordre, Touches Bloquees, Fanfares, Automne a Varsovie, Vertige and (excuse me for the gross misspellings but I don't have the sheets sitting in front of me) Coloana Infinita and Coloana s'farsit are all harder than l'Escalier du Diable.  Touchees Bloques and Fanfares are extremely tricky, but not as out-right difficult as 6/14a.

Liszt's etude "Chasse-Neige" is harder than Feux Follets.  I have seen way too many awful Chasse-Neiges in competitions, but very very few "messed up" Feux Follets.  Also, there have been three versions of the "Transcendental Etudes", one of them being the Douze Grandes Etudes and the other being the Grandes Etudes de Concert (or something like that).  Both sets are harder to play than what you're used to.  In the Douze Grandes Etudes, the Appassionata Etude (No. 10) is probably the most difficult, and would be Liszt's most difficult published etude.  None of the concert etudes are particularly tough, but La Campanella and No. 6 are both quite difficult from the Paganini Etudes, but I doubt anyone would say that are as hard as the Appassionata from the Douze Grandes Etudes.

Of Chopin's etudes, 25-6 is undoubtably the most difficult to master; pianists spend years upon years trying to perfect it.  10-2, 10-4 and 25-11 are all more difficult to play at a sub-par to mediocre level though, but 25-6 is the most difficult to perfect.

Of Rachmaninov Etudes, the No. 8 "Grave" Op. 33 is much more treacherous than it sounds and would be my vote for the trickiest to play, not to mention the most commonly botched.  Op. 39 Nos. 1 and 6 are the most forwardly difficult.

The four and a half minute recording of the Chopin-Godowsky Study on Etude Op. 25 No. 11 "Winter Wind" by Hamelin, a consistant speed demon, should tell you how beastly that piece is.  Without a doubt the most difficult.

None of the Debussy etudes are particularly difficult except No. 7 "Pour les Degrees Chromatiques" which any pianist will tell you is the most difficult.  There isn't really a contest.


Messiaen etudes kinda suck.  Do Regards.

[thorn]

Liszt's etude "Chasse-Neige" is harder than Feux Follets.  I have seen way too many awful Chasse-Neiges in competitions, but very very few "messed up" Feux Follets.  Also, there have been three versions of the "Transcendental Etudes", one of them being the Douze Grandes Etudes and the other being the Grandes Etudes de Concert (or something like that).  Both sets are harder to play than what you're used to.  In the Douze Grandes Etudes, the Appassionata Etude (No. 10) is probably the most difficult, and would be Liszt's most difficult published etude. 

Agreed.... most likely because "Chasse-Neige", when played as a competition piece, is played overly extravagantly resulting in catching wrong notes, uneven tremoli and too much blurring of sound? Feux Follets, I think, is only as difficult as it is because it's made out to be that way- i.e. psychologically it's notoriously difficult, but in reality, it just has a few bitchy passages- that's all.

The other versions of the Transcendentals are the Douze Grandes Etudes, and the Etude en 12 exercises. The Douze Grandes Etudes are pretty much what Liszt wrote for himself, realising no one else could play them and dumbing them down to the Transcendental Etudes (which are also nicer to listen to). The Etude en 12 exercises is the earliest form which developed into the Grandes Etudes, none of which you can say are harder than a Transcendental. The Etude en 12 exercises are pretty easy in comparison.

Of the Grandes Etudes, I would probably agree with Nr 10 being the most difficult, with Nr 5 (that turned into Feux Follets), being a close second. But of all of Liszt's published etudes... im not sure... there is a fourth version of Mazeppa that is pretty difficult, and if you class the "Clochette de Paganini" as an etude then it would beat all of the Transcendental, Paganini and Concert sets hands down.

Messiaen etudes kinda suck. 

not half as much as the Sorabji ones

[elias89]

What about moszkowsky??

By the way: What do you think about the new Berezowsky CD (he plays Chopin/Godowsky etudes) ? I'm not really impressed. It's stupid to combine the originals with the transcriptions on a CD!!

Only "minute-waltz" is very very good..

[stevie]

What about moszkowsky??

By the way: What do you think about the new Berezowsky CD (he plays Chopin/Godowsky etudes) ? I'm not really impressed. It's stupid to combine the originals with the transcriptions on a CD!!

Only "minute-waltz" is very very good..

stupid? i think its a great idea, although maybe a little lazy of him, instead of doing all godowskys

[maxy]

What about Mendelssohn etudes?

short, cheezy, and yes, they are actually hard­.

[mephisto]

  None of the concert etudes are particularly tough, but La Campanella and No. 6 are both quite difficult from the Paganini Etudes, but I doubt anyone would say that are as hard as the Appassionata from the Douze Grandes Etudes.

Liszt wrote an earlier set of etudes based on themes by Paganini: Transcendental Etudes after Paganini. The 2nd version of no4 is certainly one of his most difficult pieces in the Etude genre.

And btw Messiaen`s etudes are awesome.

[pianote]

Ligeti etudes No. 6 and 14a are both way harder than No. 13.   I'd say Desordre, Touches Bloquees, Fanfares, Automne a Varsovie, Vertige and (excuse me for the gross misspellings but I don't have the sheets sitting in front of me) Coloana Infinita and Coloana s'farsit are all harder than l'Escalier du Diable.  Touchees Bloques and Fanfares are extremely tricky, but not as out-right difficult as 6/14a.

yea, I'll second that. L'escalier du Diable definitely isn't the hardest out of his etudes.

[elias89]

SZYMANOWSKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know anyone who plays his etudes

[stevie]

Liszt wrote an earlier set of etudes based on themes by Paganini: Transcendental Etudes after Paganini. The 2nd version of no4 is certainly one of his most difficult pieces in the Etude genre.

And btw Messiaen`s etudes are awesome.

the superfast skipping chords one?

can someone post the (japanese?) link to the excerpt of the score, i saw this ages ago on chopinfiles.

[thalbergmad]

Hey everyone,

Henselt Etudes - 5/12

That is hell

[thalbergmad]

the superfast skipping chords one?

can someone post the (japanese?) link to the excerpt of the score, i saw this ages ago on chopinfiles.

Its in here